Podiatrists in decline

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I don,t think podiatrists have any idea how fast the profession is in decline.
With just about anybody with a set of instruments being allowed to practice it will soon not be worthy of being represented,. You just have to look at the figures: 12,700 currently registered with the HCPC. Ten years ago there were 24,000 + registered with the Health Professions Council.
Podiatrists has been consistently undermined by unfair regulation and bureaucracy
permitting those who are non accountable to exploit and undermine the profession.
Many of my colleagues have left the profession primarily because they are not able to compete with the lower fees charged by those who practice by any other name. Unless function is protected there will be no point in training podiatrists in the near future. :boohoo:

Why are we not more proactive?
Its no wonder the HCPC is registering social workers 89,722
It will soon be too late..................................

 

Snowstorm.....there is so much apathy out there regarding the Podiatry profession. Personally, I feel that if we pushed David Cameron to close the Podiatry Depts at Univesities throughout the UK, for 5 years, then this would raise the profile of the dilemma that the Podiatry profession is in.

The academic staff would be squealing, as they would be losing their jobs, and hopefully in turn they would put pressure on The Society of Chiropodists and Podiatrists to be more pro-active with regard to the Podiatry profession, which we know is not likely to happen.

To be honest with you, I feel our profession is a lost cause and the Podiatry degree we have is not worth the piece of paper it is written on. Well, at least it is a stepping stone to further studies in the UK.

Snowstorm, I phoned the HCPC once to complain about a FHP calling themselves a Chiropodist and was told they were unable to do anything, because I only had a phone number for them (on their business card), with no address, they were unable to do anything. I thought protecting the public was their main concern, but obviously the HCPC jobsworth had no initiative to phone the FHP to speak to them and to get their address, or to pass onto the police, etc. :bash:

So with a combination of a jobsworth at the HCPC and The Society of Chiropodists and Podiatrists not doing more to educate the public regarding the difference between Pods and FHPs, there is absolutely no future for Podiatry in the UK.

 

snowstorm when we were state registered there was about 10 000 registerered with cpsm where do you get 24000 from with the 3 thousand od grandparented there is now more of us.

 

I believe we peaked at 15,000.
Are there more FHP's/unregistered in practice now than there were 10 years ago?

 

David, is that a trick question? I mean I get the feeling from your posts over the last few months that you are pro Foot Health Practitioners. So are you asking your question because you are truly interested or are you asking it, so that because there is no "official register" for FHPs, your query could be used in argument to put an "official register" in place for FHPs.

David, in the 15 mile radius that I operate, in the last 14 months alone another 3 Foot Health Practitioners have started up business. Not to mention that there were an existing 4 Foot Health Practitioners in the area before I started.

So in answer to your question, where I am the amount of Foot Health Practitioners has almost doubled in the past 10 years, yet the local population has not increased!!!!

 

No trick question - just curious. If there are more FHPs now than say, 10 years ago then they are certainly a factor in podiatry business drying up.

Would they be as big a factor as not addressing prevailing market forces intelligently do you think?

I think the answer lies in low entry qualifications and too many Pods being trained myself.

 

Do you think that translates into a lower standard at the exit?

 

i agree with david they are definiteley training to many i have a co worker who will finish the part time degree in 1 year she tells me that all the students are old and at 32 she is one of the younger ones many of them are 40 and 50. i think this makes the profession weaker than other professions because young blood ensures people are in the game for many years how much can a 50 year old graduate offer us. ime 50 now with 30 years of experience and i do not have the energy i once had . i dont party at the weekend i am knackered come friday night.

as to marks question are they weeker on exit . its horrible to say so but if you put poor ingredients into your sauce you generally get a dissapointing result if podiatry had 100 graduates for every place and a minimum of abb at a level the profession would generally be full of brighter people .

incidendally they are training to many pharmacists and physios but u need 3 as at a level for pharmacy and abb for physio not one a
level in media studies for podiatry or alternativeley they cannot fill the places so take anybody to protect thier jobs i know i guy they took with a level geography only whats that about.

 

Fishpod, I do agree with you in a way, but if I am not mistaken, whatever degree you start, the 1st year is almost like an introduction level to the subject studied, etc, to bring everyone up to the right level. Along the way, particularly during and after the 1st year there will be folk who decide the subject they studying is not for them, and move onto a different degree class.

So yes Fishpod in a way, it is backsides on seats that the staff do care about to protect their jobs. However, depending which uni you apply to, some are quite fussy, especially the one I went to. However, I did study at a really topnotch uni and our graduates are highly regarded. 80% of our class was below the age of 25. And the acceptance grades were quite high - A&B.

Its definately not the standards are low on graduating (as you implied David), but my feeling on the matter is that:-

The NHS funds the training of Podiatrists. The Society of Chiropodists and Podiatrists is geared towards the NHS Podiatrist. So each and every NHS area decide that they cannot cope with their workload and decide that they do not have the funding to employ more Podiatrists, so what do they do.......They decide to cobble an NHS Policiy for the area and state that they no longer cut toenails. And push the fact that Podiatrists are not trained to cut toenails, they state it is social need. This means that the public are then inentionally mislead to believe that all Podiatrists do not cut toenails.

The reason the NHS do not state that it is only NHS Podiatrists do not cut toenails, is that would not stand up to the more intillegent NHS patient arguing on that one. So that is why the NHS state Podiatrists do not cut toenails. This then impacts the private Podiatrist, because folk do not go to them, thinking they do not cut toenails. The amount of phone calls I get asking me if I cut toenails - of course I ------ do, its my job.

So now these poor folk who are diabetic, risk category 2, been discharged from our local NHS, because they require a toenail cut wondering what to do.....and hey presto, there is a foot health practitioner, they cut toenails - because the NHS Podiatrists told them that Podiatrists do not cut toenails.

So its in the NHS interest to have foot health practitioners, just so they can continue to discharge patients, by saying they do not cut toenails.....

Has any Podiatrist attempted to sue their local NHS for a major loss of earnings, due to the NHS misleading the public that Podiatrists do not cut toenails?????

 

I think it can. I don't think it necessarily does in many cases, but low(er) calibre students graduating in an overfull marketplace certainly isn't helping the profession to grow.

Physio's I believe, had a similar problem some years ago - late eighties I believe - and I think (not certain on this) that their solution was to up the quals needed to enter the training programme.

 

David.....the profession can grow and the standards out there are high and much much higher than Foot Health Practitioners. David, do you think someone graduating from a 3 year degree with a 2:2 degree is a lower calibre Podiatrist? There are more people graduating with 2:2 degrees than 2:1 and 1st degrees in any degree at university. So no it is not about the exit calibre. The major problem are the foot health practitioners. There are many more of them since the double dip recession.

David, do you think the foot health practioners are the answer to a high calibre foot practitioner compared to a Podiatrist that studied at university for 3 years?

 

Definitely ......

 

You seem to have made your mind up that it is all the FHPs fault.
And yet some Podiatrists seem to be doing ok...............

I don't understand the question. Could you simplify please?

 

No David, it is not all the Foot Health Practitioners fault. The fault also lies with the businessman who push the FHP courses on people. I mean there is the SMAE group (training FHP), where the main player for the SMAE also owns a care home for the elderly and also has other housing for folk with medical disorders, not to mention the other Director of the SMAE group, who is an accountant by trade (advertises that his clients are SMAE), and he is also is the Director for Podiacare. This information was the case a few months ago, whether the information has changed since then, who knows......You may want to check on companies house website.

David, the fault also lies with the NHS Podiatry Depts who also undermine the profession, by discharging patients who require toenail cuts and are medically at risk, but do not have the staff to cater for their needs and then discharge them saying "Podiatrists do not cut toenails" not "NHS Podiatrists do not cut toenails."

David, the fault also lies with the HCPC jobsworth who oversees the protection of titles and protection of words. The fault also lies with the Society of Chiropdoists and Podiatrists, who refuse to have anything on the front page of their website stating what the difference is between FHPs and Pods (statutory regulation, etc).

David, my business is doing OK, but I would do much better if at the end of the day the FHP were not here undercutting me and doing the same work i am doing without been statutory regulated, very unfair playing field.

My question to you is are you of the opinion that someone who has undertaken a FHP long distance course with 1 - 2 weeks clinical placement setting in a non-NHS envirnoment, is better equipped and better trained to underake chiropodiy treatments, compared to someone who has undertaken a 3 year Podiatry degree, doing clinical placements in NHS settings?

 

Love.

May I call you love?

It seems rather familiar since as far as I know we haven't been introduced. No matter........

Love, for basic nailcare and callous removal?
There are good and bad in both camps, but I suspect that an FHP who has been doing this kind of work successfully for a year or more will be just as capable at the task than someone with a degree, and probably cheaper. If we're honest we probably all know someone who qualified or graduated but who was hopeless at the simple stuff.
NHS Manager material - I do hope not teaching material, but who knows.

You miss the point though. The reason the profession is shrinking is not the fault of FHPs (although they may be causing problems in your area), or those who train them. I don't BTW. Never have - I wrote a module for the SMAE degree update but that's it.
Not even the fault of the SCP, or the NHS.
It is because the profession as a whole in the UK has not yet grasped that we need to be a cohesive force with direction to be effective. Some of us were (cohesive and with direction), for a while.

What happened?
The chiropody (as it was then) Establishment saw us as a threat (probably to their pensions) and did their level best to impede our progress.
Not sooooo long ago Mark Russell presented through various media, a simple plan to provide good footcare within the profession, not to dissimilar to what is now happening as healthcare is put out to tender.
What happened?
The Establishment, in this case the SCP and their supporters, were not interested. Some, probably the lackeys, were quite voluble in their disinterest.

We are now, to use a simple analogy, a ship without a rudder. Individuals can and do still do well, but the profession as a whole, in the uk, has lost it's way.

 

I largely agree with this. However, the profession (and I am in print as so saying at the time - in the Society journal) missed the point at the inception of the indicative closure Act that we are the only PAM which is largely private practice based. I did list the reasons why we are much closer to dental surgery than as a PAM and we should have resisted in every way possible our round peg being forced into a square hole. Had a General Podiatry Council been formed at the time then the profession could not only have taken control of it's own destiny but could have controlled (not stopped) FHPs. ALL (emphasis) the major bodies were in favour of this approach and a draft bill was prepared for parliament (I've seen it). Unfortunately, for a reason of which I am unaware, the Society pulled out of the agreement. The result is that we are now stuck with an Act which does not relate well to the profession (it never said it would) and the pp has competition from people who are not required to fulfill the same stringent standards as those enforced 'against' the pp by the HCPC.

This post is not an iteration of points already known, nor is it a 'moan'. The simple fact of the matter is that the profession is where it is and nobody is going to help. The only way of making progress, as David has stated, is to carry out procedures which the FHP cannot (and would not wish to) thus putting 'clear blue water' between the profession and other practitioners who are not registered under the Act; ie. turn weakness into strength. The other element is to form a cohesive unit and subject the politicians and media to a sustained barrage of the absurdities of the Act as it stands. However, this will never happen whilst the different professional bodies continue to serve their own selfish interests over the good of the profession as a whole.

I do not wholly agree with either David or Mark Russell. Mature discussion would, I am sure, find a path of compromise; you may not agree, but at least they have tried.

Bill Liggins

 

Hi Lovefeet.

I partly agree with you but totally agree with you re the total complacency and uselessness of the HPC and the SCP. I'm not quite sure which is the worst!

I have had similar problems to you with the HPC - it would appear that only when they receive 'hard evidence' they will then write them a little billet doux asking them so politely to please, pretty please stop advertising as such. About as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike!

Best wishes

Nick

 

Fishpod,

As someone who qualified at age 52 I couldn't disagree with you more on this!

Actually I had an entire career behind me and a very good knowledge of how people tick and how to talk to them.

How the heck does that make the profession weaker? I actually studied and sat 6 A level equivalent exams (in a Science Access to HE) course in 7 months. That is no mean feat for anyone and a damn sight better qualification with more depth than some of the A level students now.

I'll tell you what a 50+ yr old graduate just might give to the profession - a little bit more understanding of the outside world (especially to those that have been in the employ of the NHS all the time). Possibly far better insight into people and a wish to actually help people and also use preventative methods as opposed to NHS fire brigade podiatry.

Plus as we work on - we might just retire or work less, thus leaving space for others to take over and join thriving private practices set up by us old graduates!

Some of us are actually bloody good and are full appointment books and waiting lists underline that.

Nick

 

I do not wish to get involved in this debate - except to say this. While I was a "normal aged" pod student (17-20), I was a mature student in both first and doctoral degrees. I taught pod students for well over 30 years, including at graduate level. I think students find what they are looking for; with the exception of perhaps 1-2, all my graduate students have been mature - sometimes older than me. My final word is this: those that that either despise or ignore mature students are digging an early grave for themselves. Rob

 

I see a list of people to blame, but not what you are doing about it??? now I am not sure what can be done, but surely a starting point would be to actually do something. Recently all I have seen in parts of this forum is how hard done to people feel, the only people that can do anything about this are the people themselves, think outside the box, reinvent yourself re-market yourself but please do something

i have used this quote before but it sticks in my mind and is written on the wipe board in our workshop " the only thing standing between you and your goal is the bull**** story that you tell yourself every day as to why you can't achieve it " YOU and only YOU are in control of what YOU do

sorry for the rant but I honestly think if you do nothing, nothing will happen to improve things

 

Agree wholeheartedly. Sometimes people are quick to point the finger of blame, especially at their membership organisations, but it has to be remembered that membership associations are just that - organised associations of members working towards a common goal. If you are unhappy - get organised and mobilise support. Influence the decisions that are made on your behalf. Lobby your local representatives. Write articles and letters to the Journal for publication. If that doesn't work - find out why. Re-evaluate your position and come at the problem from a different position. If you only see the profession from one perspective - your own - you will forever be at a disadvantage. Stand up for what you believe in though - and be prepared to argue your position but do so in a reasoned, positive manner at every opportunity with the understanding that what you propose will be of benefit to the entire profession and its patients.

If, however, you restrict your activities to griping on public forums, all you are doing is adding to the general professional malaise and disenfranchisement that has characterised large sections of UK podiatry for decades - which serves no-one well.

 

If you are unhappy - get organised and mobilise support. Influence the decisions that are made on your behalf. Lobby your local representatives. Write articles and letters to the Journal for publication. If that doesn't work - find out why.

If, however, you restrict your activities to griping on public forums, all you are doing is adding to the general professional malaise and disenfranchisement that has characterised large sections of UK podiatry for decades - which serves no-one well.[/QUO

Hhm I read the questions and answers To The Society in the PodiatBy Now. The questions were good but the answers were useless. All air no substance....

I agree with you whinging on a website is not ideal, but at the end of the day, at least you raising issue and just maybe just maybe just maybe just maybe, there is someone in the HCPC and The Society who read these posts and may decide to do something about it - i.e. replace the jobsworth at HCPC and put up something up on the front page of The Society webpage stating what the difference is between FHP and Pod.

Am looking to change profession......

 

Quite happy to provide a reference.....

 

I would also like to add that research looking at mature students suggests that they out perform their younger counterparts despite entering their educational programmes with lower entry qualifications. Low academic self-efficacy and subsequent academic support seeking act as the main constructs in predicting performance. Previous posters appear to have posted their ill-informed views on mature students without taking the trouble of looking at the literature.

 

Yes, I have to admit to being a mature student when I did my degree and my higher degree. I was but a callow youth when I did my three year Diploma.......

I was certainly much more motivated 2nd and 3rd time around.

 

DavidH......I know for a fact that some of the older folk studying gave the younger folk a hard time, e.g. bullying them. I put it down to the fact that they felt threatened....There was bullying at a university where they trained pods. The bullying was a factor that made some younger pod students leave the course.