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Self administration of local anaestheic and the fitness to practice

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by Craig Payne, Aug 24, 2016.

  1. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator


    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    I see this is set for a hearing next week:
    ....I have done this more than once over the yrs :cool: . but I was self employed and not working for an NHS trust
  2. Lab Guy

    Lab Guy Well-Known Member

    I have injected my arthritic first MPJ a few times myself. I also anesthetized my plantar wart and curretted it out myself. No recurrence either.
    No big deal to me but I am probably not the norm. I did give myself
    A professional discount!
  3. blinda

    blinda MVP

    I've often injected myself to see which is the least painful method to achieve anaesthesia.

    Keeps me off the streets.
  4. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Me too.

    The HCPC are bound to investigate every complaint. Not a bad thing, and good to see them working for a living :D .
  5. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    I do think it a bad thing. The HCPC don't pay, they have no money, they use ours instead. Thus every clearly malicious, mendacious and as here, on the face of it, absurd, complaint grinds through the process of overpaid, metrocentric and seat waxing minor civil servant snooping. Of course, if the civil servants can't manage then they can call in their even more grossly overpaid lawyers at our expense. Even I could understand (if not accept) the situation if I thought that this was simply yet another manifestation of the politically correct lobby 'doing their thing' but I fear that there may be some hidden agenda to conveniently dispose of a inconvenient member of staff.

    I feel that there is a strong argument that (s)he who have never injected themselves with LA should not be injecting others!

  6. fishpod

    fishpod Well-Known Member

    just repeat what bill has said . somebody in this persons dept hates them . its a joke. whats the charge they stole 20p worth of local. god help us all. This situation could have been sorted with a quite word.
  7. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    I suppose that the HCPC do carry the "justice must not only be done, but be seen to be done" adage a bit far. What should be remembered however, is that an HCPC ruling carries complete professional exoneration if there is no substance in the allegation.

    On this particular case I fear you are right FP.
  8. fishpod

    fishpod Well-Known Member

    if this was a doctor the gmc would laugh they would not even convene a meeting. example a podiatrist gets done for drink driving and gets a criminal conviction result probable striking off order . a gp does the same gets knuckles rapped and hires a driver.
  9. That's not quite correct, David. Even when allegations are unproven or the case doesn't proceed to a formal hearing, the HCPC retain the complaint on file for either three or five years, I can't remember which. The real problem - as Bill highlights, is that the "investigation team" are just a bunch of civil servants sitting on their backsides in a London office who weigh the evidence put before them with the goal of proving the allegations in a hearing. Many of the complaints are ludicrous - as the one featured here - but if they can "prove" a breach of code, then they will certainly run with it. Common sense doesn't feature in Park House.
  10. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Hi Mark,

    Exoneration requires a formal hearing and a ruling.
  11. Ros Kidd

    Ros Kidd Active Member

    "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our 3 main deadly weapons are"!
    I could go but that would be plain silly. Many a true word said in jest.
  12. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    Not really '...surprise, fear and ruthless efficiency'. In fact, like the Gestapo, the Inquisition wasn't terribly efficient but like the Gestapo it relied more on denunciation than torture. Also like the Gestapo, once a victim was in their hands, physical and mental torment was applied if necessary to elicit the names of other 'guilty parties'. Needless to say many totally innocent people were led to the stake as a result - who could withstand the rack, the strappado and other ingenious methods of 'persuasion' for hours and days on end?

    I wouldn't dream of suggesting that the HCPC use physical torment in their 'investigations'; however it is of note that like all tyrannies throughout the ages, they simply need a denunciation to begin their work, and the contemptible persons who denounce invariably do it for their own perceived benefit. It is also of note that the KGB in Soviet Russia required their prisoners to pay for the bullets used for their own execution.

    Bill Liggins (M.A. Medieval history)
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2016
  13. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    What exactly is the nature of the misconduct?

    Is it the fact that he performed the act upon himself?

    Is it the fact that he carried out the action on a part of the body other than the foot?

    Is it the fact that there was no medical need for the local anaesthetic?

    Or is it each of these or some interesting combination of any two from three?

  14. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    I don't know. Doubtless we shall see as the case evolves but:

    i) there is nothing illegal about injecting yourself with any legal substance provided it does not lead to danger to others
    ii) since he performed it on himself there is nothing illegal about so doing in any part of the body
    iii) again, there is nothing illegal about using LA on yourself when there is no medical necessity

    We can speculate that he was guilty of 'stealing' the LA from the employing authority or that he put a patient(s) in danger when working with an anaesthetised finger. I hope that he was just practicing technique and that he is lauded rather than denounced for doing so. However, we will see!

    Bill Liggins
  15. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    Possibly he was using the LA injection into his hand as a form of Russian roulette where his hand was the gun and the site of injection was the chamber and the LA was the bullet and the head against which the gun was placed was the patient's foot.

    So, you play the game like this.

    Oh god, another boring day whacking callus, I've got to do something to make my life more exciting. Got it!

    Just before I am due to start I will take a syringe of LA and at random plunge it into my hand somewhere between the wrist and tip of my fingers, possibly by closing my eyes, placing the hand underneath, moving the hand back and forward and then stabbing blindly at it with the needle.

    Wherever the needle ends up I inject the volume of anaesthetic. The range of possible outcomes is immense, relatively unpredictable and apart from the small personal risk of an allergic response, over dose or being charged with professional misconduct the major risk is taken by the patient.

    It you end up anaesthetising an area that doesn't interfere with your treatment of the patient no problem but if you can't feel the scalpel in your hand you might so to speak blow the patient's head off.

    Wow, what a sense of brinkmanship, what a story to tell down the pub and unless you get caught someone else takes all the risk.

    The ante can be upped by injecting in the arm or neck and the nature of the game changes totally if you choose the body part at random.

    Want to have the same excitement as being a member of the SAS without getting out of your chair? Multiply your sensation by eliminating it! It's almost got a Buddist feel to it.

    Take the plunge.

  16. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    I saw Billy Connolly make a similar joke about lack of girlfriends, and lying on your arm until it went numb.

    I don't want to be unduly moderated, so you'll have to use your imagination about the rest.
  17. Trust you to lower the tone with your lurid fantasies, Donaldson. No wonder Pod Arena viewing figures have plummeted since you started posting!

    Anyway, your tale reminds me of a close to retiring corn cutter in the Midlands who was tragically struck by a motorbike during his lunchtime excursion to the pie shop near his surgery. The unfortunate gent sustained a fractured pelvis, femur and severe lacerations and was taken to Selly Oak hospital and admitted for emergency surgery. However when he was being prepared he was found to be wearing some intimate apparel usually found on the fairer sex and had a large remote controlled vibrating egg hidden inside his anatomy. Though clearly embarrassed the following day, he confessed to the ward staff that he wasn't a crossdresser or pervert, he just did it to make the day a little less monotonous.

    It would appear you have peers after all!
  18. Dieter Fellner

    Dieter Fellner Well-Known Member

    LOL ... you just can't make this stuff up - viva la diferencia. I'm pretty sure the HCPC would have rendered this poor chap morally corrupt and sexually deviant and henceforth unfit to shave callus and trim nails. I would like to dig around the personal lives of this panel to know what skeleton might lurk in their wardrobe.
  19. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    The difference is that he lived out his fantasies! An Lang may his lum reek.
  20. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    if not actually vibrate.
  21. Graeme Franklin

    Graeme Franklin Active Member

    Presumably the alleged misconduct is along the lines of LA not being used in it's normal professional practise and lack of objectivity?
    Analogous to self medicating on antibiotics for those with POMs annotation: whilst being legal it is against best practise?
  22. Dieter Fellner

    Dieter Fellner Well-Known Member


    I think the issue here is the Podiatrist 'stole' (from the NHS) the consumables to inject himself? Perhaps he should have registered himself as a patient (with himself). It's all a little absurd and typical of the mindless NHS full throttle bureaucracy in action. Medical residents have been known to self administer IV saline to quickly re-hydrate to survive their 24-48 on call. Perhaps this is only a pretext because someone in the organization doesn't like him and is looking for an excuse to get rid. Not unheard of ......:confused:
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2016
  23. Graeme Franklin

    Graeme Franklin Active Member

    Yes, at face value the issue would have been better dealt with by local management!
    I often doubt the motives of those reporting indiscretions to the HCPC for relatively minor cases. Either there is more than meets the eye in this case or poor management.
  24. Dieter Fellner

    Dieter Fellner Well-Known Member

    RIGHT! A simple slap on the wrist would suffice, if the organization insists. Maybe he's a serial offender and can't help himself injecting his *whatever* .... either way he's a big boy and can decide. It's a travesty if this should result in the infamous 'unfit to practice' verdict. Hogwash ....
  25. wdd

    wdd Well-Known Member

    Remember he has been injecting LA into his hand. So the value of a "slap on the wrist" may or may not be of any value?

    As you say it would be "a travesty if this should result in the infamous 'unfit' to practice verdict." However, again, we must remember that he was injecting local anaesthetic into his hand! So a temporarily unfit to practice verdict might be appropriate. On the other hand it might not?

  26. Dieter Fellner

    Dieter Fellner Well-Known Member


    Bill, no...... The slap on the 'hand' would be provided on the hand that wasn't injected. I'd take the hand slap, then sue for assault. Only he'd have to make sure not to use his work phone. Otherwise he's risking another 'unfit to practice' verdict.

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