Brooks have just announced what appears to be their competitor shoe for the Hoka One One's.
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http://sneakerreport.com/news/brooks-running-unveils-transcend/
Bring it on.
Almost all the minimalist running shoe companies (Altra in particular) are coming now coming out with padded shoes! They have to, so they can stay in business:
http://www.runblogger.com/2013/08/brooks-transcend-and-altra-olympus-max.html
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Runners World are reporting on it here:
http://www.runnersworld.com/running-shoes/brooks-unveils-its-most-cushioned-shoe-yet -
Taken from the sneaker report article referencing the Brooks Transcend, "acting as a safety net keeping the body balanced throughout the run".
Does anyone have a clue about what that means? -
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Todays Running Insight has this teaser of an advert from Brooks:
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Running Warehouse comments on this shoe:
http://blog.runningwarehouse.com/rs/brooks-transcend-sneak-peek/ -
I wouldn't expect runners to be able to run faster or longer in these types of shoes and I certainly wouldn't expect them to have fewer injuries.
I'll look forward to when Craig "goes where the evidence takes him until convinced otherwise" and he can get to the bottom of whether these have any merit other than helping runners part with their money. -
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Here is a 60 min podcast, lots about the Hoka and the trend to maximalists. Pete Larsen is one of the participants.
http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-34812/TS-765834.mp3
Apparently Skechers have a maximalist shoe in the pipline. Merrel are also coming out with a padded shoe.
Peter also commented on 1/3rd to 1/4 of participants in ultramarathons wearing Hoka's -
More research like the following is needed for these issues to be effectively understood & incorporated into practicality... as well as the individual characteristics of runners & wanna-be runners (i.e. weight, physiology, running technique).
From this post highlighting the following research: A Test of the Metabolic Cost of Cushioning Hypothesis during Unshod and Shod Running:
I personally feel that this Brooks Transcend doesn't look like a "maximalist" shoe... particularly in light of the likes of the Hoka One One (when comparing midsole attributes)... albeit, no doubt cushioning going by the marketing...
Hoka One One
I don't keep on track with this Hoka One One shoe - are there any characteristic injuries which have surfaced from wearing such a shoe? (i.e. inversion ankle sprains? head injuries? :eek:)Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016 -
I have been wearing and recommending Hoka One One shoes now for two years. The midsole thickness in the Hoka is deceptive by looking externally at the shoe since the sole plate of the shoe is actually sunken down more plantar than the external midsole/upper trim line suggests.
Here is what I wrote about the Hoka's two years ago here on Podiatry Arena:
I suppose the rest of the running shoe industry is trying to get on the bandwagon that I saw coming a few years ago. I just wonder what all the barefoot and "minimalist" running advocates have to say about this "new" trend in running shoe design. ;)Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016 -
Thanks Kevin for the feedback. I did add the following question later to my post (probably after you quoted it): "I don't keep on track with this Hoka One One shoe - are there any characteristic injuries which have surfaced from wearing such a shoe? (i.e. inversion ankle sprains? head injuries? :eek:)." However, it seems you have answered it via i.e. "... least amount of frontal plane stability. The Hoka One One shoe seems to break this "rule" of running shoe sole design with their extra wide-wrap around sole."
However, in your running & clinical experience, have you seen or heard any injuries associated with the shoe?
Thanks for your insights. -
Should be interesting if the other manufacturers can duplicate the frontal plane stability of the Hokas. These shoes are widely used in the Western States 100 Mile Endurance Run (all on mountain trails) held every June just about an hour east of Sacramento. Estimates range that over one third to one half of the participants this last year were wearing Hokas at the starting line. -
The only negative comments you pick up online about them are the jokes by the fan boys who have never worn them. -
There are plenty of anecdotes about them causing knee pain, but we all know the value of anecdotal evidence. I personally know of 3 or 4 ultrarunners who had to stop wearing Hoka One Ones due to knee pain that developed after wearing the shoes. I remember posting an email on this forum from one of them a year or two ago. With time we will learn who these work for and who they don't. Unfortunately people tend to follow fads so everyone will think they are the next running panacea. -
Is this new trend in running shoe fashion for 2014?
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Craig thank you for adopting the term "Maximalist"
Kevin has previously tried to define Minimalism.
If i may continue to help define the term Maximalism so we do not use it for the wrong type of footwear.
Maximalist footwear are developed to "maximally" enhance the protective properties (ie puncture, fire, blast) of footwear, enhance the energy efficiency (ie lower O2 demands), and enhance the stability (ie more stable base of gait).
I am not sure how extra depth soft foam shoes can fufill these conditions.
Now Simon is on to something, please remember that cushioning systems do not have to be made out of just foam. My pickup truck has a leaf spring system to cushion the bed of the truck to midigate heavy loads and so does a certain newly patented advanced composite spring lever orhtotic system.
Mahalo,
Steve
Dr. Steven King DPM CPED
American Society of Testing Materials member
-F13 Footwear Traction and Safety Committee
-E54 Homeland Security Applications and Body Armor -
Some could see the writing on the wall a while back; these maximalist shoes must have been in development for some time now. Just caught this comment:
Trend Report: How Performance Footwear Will Change in Spring 2014 -
"An expected change this year for performance footwear is watching the pendulum slowly change from the minimalism of the past five years to a sudden focus on maximalism"
I understand when "performance" is used to imply racing, I don't get it if "performance" is implying training. In any case, I can't wait to see the 10-12+ ounce maximalized racing flats.
Maybe "performance" is meant to imply over priced.
I think it is great that these huge shoes are part of the running alternative, I just don't see them as the solution for everyone or any sort of running panacea. They are nothing more than over cushioned shoes, they either help your running or they don't. -
I just see this as another niche market being swallowed up by the "big boys" of the running shoe world. Hoka had been producing these shoes for a while now, and its obvious at most ultra distance events they are very popular.
Look at the minimalist trend - niche market taken on/over by the big boys.
The likes of Brooks, NB, Nike etc still produce the "traditional" shoe. The minimalist, and now maximalist will just sit either side as they broaden the offerings and attempt to take more of the market share. -
Let's think about this a bit...
How does more of the same qualify as maximalist???
ie thicker softer foam shoes
I love my Grandma but I would not like to run a marathon on her feather bed...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E5eoZNdlzck
What honestly is Maximalism?
Mahalo,
Steve -
Here is the Brooks "reveal" on this shoe:
http://www.brooksrunning.com/on/dem...ng-Library/default/transcendReveal/index.html -
Press Release:
The Brooks Transcend Revolutionizes How Runners Experience Stability and Cushioning
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Here is my introduction of the original "maximalist" Hoka One One shoes to the greater USA podiatry community two years ago on Barry Block's PM News:
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Will running shops move away from selling trainers based on foot type and gait analysis and move more towards recommending trainers based on the hardness of the intended running surface. Eg soft surface such as sand, little or no cushioning. As the surface hardens increase midsole softness and thickness.
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Not wanting to take too much attention away from the Brooks Transcend - but still on topic i.e. cushioning... I really can't see myself training in a Hoka One One (just sense they're not suited to me personally) - I'm curious on how a training session would go/feel within the shoe but I'm not going to fork out the $230 (internet price) for a shoe I can't see myself wearing too often (if at all - come to think of it, maybe they could be good for recovery runs where it's ideal to reduce the GRF).
Anyway, a shoe within the cushioning range that has been on my mind has been the On range - particularly the On Cloudracer - particularly for longer races i.e. Marathon.
Has anybody had any experience with the On range, or have heard any feedback of them. When they first came out I did read on a running forum that one guy was having an issue with the durability of the rubber elements (i.e. breaking - but he was a heavy build from memory). I know these shoes have been discussed on this forum before but just wanting any further feedback a few years down the track. -
I wore a pair for a 2-3 min run on a treadmill at the London marathon a few years ago. They seemed a bit gimmicky and I've not seen much about them since. My main thought at the time was 'how long will the rubber last'.
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As an aside to this whole maximalist running shoe thread, Deckers Outdoor Corporation bought the Hoka One One brand now about a year ago. The CEO of Deckers is Angel Martinez (see recent head shot of Angel below) who has also been the CEO of Rockport, helped start and became CEO of Keen and was also Chief Marketing Officer for Reebok. Here is a bio of Angel....pretty incredible story from rags to riches.
Why is this all significant to me? Angel and I were teammates on the UC Davis Aggie cross country team. He was our top runner when I was a sophomore on team. Here is a photo I took of Angel leading the race at Bidwell Park in Chico, California, in which he won the Far West Conference Cross-Country Championship race in 1977. Angel was very fast and was also instrumental in creating the Aggie Running Club. Angel and I were both members of the original 13 man Bay to Breakers Centipede which we helped create back in 1978 (see photo).
By the way, in the centipede photo, I'm third from the front with the red-yarn hat in my hand in this photo of us from at the start of the 1978 Bay to Breakers...the first ever Bay to Breakers Centipede! -
Probably best I check them out in person... as well as the Hoka shoe. -
Aloha,
Is there a correlation between "super-sizing" these shoes and a reduction of orthotic correction?
i.e. is it more difficult to hold the correction of a corrective device on a thicker softer foam platform?
What research has been done on this?
Any solid conclusions?
Mahalo,
Steve
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/alberteins133991.html#KRQ3Y11loCRjXWiW.99 -
Aloha,
I humbly disagree with Kevin's comments that the latest "super sized" foam shoes qualify as maximalist shoes.
Posted in Podiatry Management Webzine by Dr. Barry Block.
RE: Maximalist Running Shoes are In, Minimalist Running Shoes are Out
From: Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Over the last five years, there was a rise in interest in barefoot and "minimalist" running, along with an increase in runners getting injured by trying to transition into barefoot and/or minimalist shoe running. Two years ago, here on PM News, I mentioned a new shoe that I had run in, the Hoka One One, which I had thought represented a new design breakthrough and a new shoe category, the "maximalist shoe". Hoka One One running shoes have much thicker and more cushioned midsoles and have become increasingly popular, especially in the ultra-marathon and trail running community.
Recently, other running shoe manufacturers have taken notice of the popularity and success of the Hoka shoe and are now jumping on the "maximalist shoe bandwagon" with their own form of thick-soled, highly cushioned midsole running shoes. Most notable in this category is the newly released Brooks Transcend shoe, which has a much thicker, cushioned midsole, like the Hoka.
At the same time, minimalist shoes, such as the Vibram FiveFinger shoe, are on closeout specials throughout the country as runners are increasingly voting with their feet and wallets to move away from the much-hyped, questionable benefits of barefoot and minimalist shoe running. I suggest all podiatrists who do treat runners to go to their local specialty running shoe stores and inspect and test-wear both the Hoka and Brooks Transcend running shoes that will likely represent the latest trend in running shoe design: the maximalist running shoe.
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM, Sacramento, CA, kevinakirby@comcast.net
Aloha,
Before we make judgement on the proper definition of "maximalism" perhaps we could apply a scientific approach to defining the term.
One of the bigger issues our fellow foot care providers have had with the minimalist shoe trend has been a reduction of the protective qualities. If Maximalism is to be the contrast to minimalism then maximalist shoes must be designed with significant and testable safety features such as increase in puncture protection. The American Society of Testing Materials and SATRA has accepted safety test standards currently in place and for the safety of our patients we should start to use them on more of our footwear choices.
Energy efficiency of gait needs to be addressed when defining this term. If minimalism restricts the use of exterior influences of footwear maximalism will embrace it. The Orthotics and Prothetics Industry has done wonders with the new advanced designs using advanced composite carbon fiber enough to enable bilateral leg amputees to compete in the Olympics. Future maximalist designs should also include powered gait systems. Maximalist footwear must be able to significantly enhance the efficiency of gait.
Stability of gait will also need to be addressed. Maximalist footwear must test significant improvements in the stabilization of the user during gait and stance.
Mahalo,
Dr. Steven King
Maui Hawaii
American Society of Testing Materials
F13 Footwear Safety and Traction Committee Member
E54 Homeland Security Applications and Body Armor Committee Member
Managing Member Kingetics LLC
Co-Principal Investigator SBIR A11-109 "Advanced Composite Insoles for the Reduction of Stress Fractures." US Department of Defense and Army Medical Research and Materials Command. -
Aloha,
Mechanically how are these latest "super sized" foam shoes different than the MBT "super sized" foam shoes that helped push the minimalist trend in the first place?
Mahalo,
Steve -
Will running shops move away from selling trainers based on foot type and gait analysis and move more towards recommending trainers based on the hardness of the intended running surface. Eg soft surface such as sand, little or no cushioning. As the surface hardens increase midsole softness and thickness.
Running shops have been selling trail running shoes for almost 20 yrs now. Not a statement about moving away from foot type and gait analysis but certainly in line with matching a running shoe to the intended running surface.
The characteristics of trail running shoes cover a broad range so they are difficult to describe with a finite set of characteristics. Initially, it was the hiking boot companies that first came out with the concept. Specifically Solomon and The North Face. They were followed by Montrail, Vasque and Merrell. After sales picked up, of course the major shoe companies jumped on the band wagon. The initial trail shoes tended to have more rugged or cleated outsoles, firmer, thinner midsoles, were stiffer, had a rubber toe bumper and put your foot closer to the ground (limit ankle sprains). The problem I always had with the early trail running shoes is they tended to be even heavier than road shoes.
Hoka one one has both trail and road models. One of the primary reasons Hoka has been popular in the ultra running community is because one of the top ultra runners, Karl Meltzer has been anecdotaly endorsing them. Karl has been winning over 60% of the 100 mile trail runs that he enters. Ultra runners are no different than the rest of the running community with respect to looking for the magic pill that is going to turn them into an elite runner. Since Karl endorses the Hoka, they must be the reason he is winning all of those races.
When asked about running on trails in the Hokas, Karl has had a few things to say. He describes them as "mushing out" the rocks. Rather than focusing on foot placement to avoid landing on sharp rocks, you can just run over them and mush them out. When asked if there are problems with ankle sprains, he described the thick mushy midsole as slowing down the rotation of your ankle. I assume that allows more time to react and adjust as well as providing a less violent twist. What he didn't say is whether or not the frequency of ankle twists increases in Hokas or not.
The part I really don't get with wearing mushy soles on soft surfaces is that from a physics standpoint, you need a firm surface to push off of for propulsion. If the ground and shoe are not going to provide that "stiffness" your feet and legs will compensate. That compensation will take from efficiency and encourage fatigue.
Karl Meltzer is good enough to win races in probably any shoe, what is not known is the financial influence Hoka might have on his endorsements.
Now that Hoka One One has some market attention, of course the major shoe companies are going to come out with their version. They have done it with trail shoes, minimal shoes and now maximal shoes. Each time this happens each running shoe company claims they have had a miraculous technology break through and that their shoe is the answer to all of your dreams and problems.
The jury is still out on maximalism. For me, I'm going to wait for the 5 toed version of maximal shoes to come out. -
I've been asking a few of my running mates, mainly amateur ultra distance and trail runners about their experiences of hoka one ones. They generally don't have much praise form them. The main criticisms are poor grip on wet rock and ankle sprains. They do however like the fact that they can't feel the terrain after 6 hours running.
I think left foot in a VFF and right foot in a hoka one one is the future. Makes traversing a steep hill much easier. -
It will be interesting to see how 2014 will shape up for the running shoe market since thicker soled, highly cushioned running shoes, like the Hoda, will likely be much more common, from what I have heard.
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