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The maximalist Brooks Transcend Running Shoe

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by Craig Payne, Aug 2, 2013.

  1. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
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    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    Brooks have just announced what appears to be their competitor shoe for the Hoka One One's.

    http://sneakerreport.com/news/brooks-running-unveils-transcend/
    Bring it on.

    Almost all the minimalist running shoe companies (Altra in particular) are coming now coming out with padded shoes! They have to, so they can stay in business:

    http://www.runblogger.com/2013/08/brooks-transcend-and-altra-olympus-max.html
     
  2. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
  3. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Like any running shoe, they aren't for everyone.

    Taken from the sneaker report article referencing the Brooks Transcend, "acting as a safety net keeping the body balanced throughout the run".

    Does anyone have a clue about what that means?
     
  4. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    It doesn't mean anything; its marketing speak.
     
  5. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Todays Running Insight has this teaser of an advert from Brooks:
     

    Attached Files:

  6. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

  7. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

  8. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    So with the Brooks Transcend we are going back to 12+ OZ shoes. As far as the cushioning goes, too much of anything is not necessarily a good thing. Too much cushioning forces the runners feet and legs to compensate to get the runner back into the zone of optimal leg stiffness. The result is the runner ends up with excessively and unnecessarily tired feet and legs. Add soft, mushy shoes to soft surfaces such as sand, dirt and gravel trails and the problem is compounded. Might as well run in quicksand.

    I wouldn't expect runners to be able to run faster or longer in these types of shoes and I certainly wouldn't expect them to have fewer injuries.

    I'll look forward to when Craig "goes where the evidence takes him until convinced otherwise" and he can get to the bottom of whether these have any merit other than helping runners part with their money.
     
  9. Depends on the stiffness of the cushioning, not just the thickness. However, if you want to get into the realms of McMahon's optimal surface stiffness range you need a relatively thick sole to allow the relatively large downwards displacements without bottoming out the midsole. I guess this is why the thicker sole is required and being pushed by the manufacturers (I'm assuming this kind of shoe is employing more compliant midsoles?). As we've discussed before the additional mass can easily be offset by the improved metabolic efficiency observed with an optimal surface compliance.
     
  10. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
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    Here is a 60 min podcast, lots about the Hoka and the trend to maximalists. Pete Larsen is one of the participants.
    http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-34812/TS-765834.mp3

    Apparently Skechers have a maximalist shoe in the pipline. Merrel are also coming out with a padded shoe.

    Peter also commented on 1/3rd to 1/4 of participants in ultramarathons wearing Hoka's
     
  11. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    More research like the following is needed for these issues to be effectively understood & incorporated into practicality... as well as the individual characteristics of runners & wanna-be runners (i.e. weight, physiology, running technique).

    From this post highlighting the following research: A Test of the Metabolic Cost of Cushioning Hypothesis during Unshod and Shod Running:

    Maybe there is a need to categorise "cushioning" levels... maybe we should categorise "minimalist" & "maximalist" footwear (i.e. establish the parameters thereof).

    I personally feel that this Brooks Transcend doesn't look like a "maximalist" shoe... particularly in light of the likes of the Hoka One One (when comparing midsole attributes)... albeit, no doubt cushioning going by the marketing...



    [​IMG]
    Hoka One One

    I don't keep on track with this Hoka One One shoe - are there any characteristic injuries which have surfaced from wearing such a shoe? (i.e. inversion ankle sprains? head injuries? :eek:)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  12. Matt:

    I have been wearing and recommending Hoka One One shoes now for two years. The midsole thickness in the Hoka is deceptive by looking externally at the shoe since the sole plate of the shoe is actually sunken down more plantar than the external midsole/upper trim line suggests.

    Here is what I wrote about the Hoka's two years ago here on Podiatry Arena:

    Hoka Ones

    I suppose the rest of the running shoe industry is trying to get on the bandwagon that I saw coming a few years ago. I just wonder what all the barefoot and "minimalist" running advocates have to say about this "new" trend in running shoe design. ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  13. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    Thanks Kevin for the feedback. I did add the following question later to my post (probably after you quoted it): "I don't keep on track with this Hoka One One shoe - are there any characteristic injuries which have surfaced from wearing such a shoe? (i.e. inversion ankle sprains? head injuries? :eek:)." However, it seems you have answered it via i.e. "... least amount of frontal plane stability. The Hoka One One shoe seems to break this "rule" of running shoe sole design with their extra wide-wrap around sole."

    However, in your running & clinical experience, have you seen or heard any injuries associated with the shoe?

    Thanks for your insights.
     
  14. Haven't seen any Hoka related injuries yet. My wife uses them for walking for her plantar metatarsal head pain, I have two pair and my 30 year old son is training for his first marathon in them...he expects to be running about a 2:50, even though he ran a 4:40 mile at age 15. He loves them and they cured his chronic gastrocnemius strains.

    Should be interesting if the other manufacturers can duplicate the frontal plane stability of the Hokas. These shoes are widely used in the Western States 100 Mile Endurance Run (all on mountain trails) held every June just about an hour east of Sacramento. Estimates range that over one third to one half of the participants this last year were wearing Hokas at the starting line.
     
  15. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    If you follow all the anecdotes on blogs and forums, there are no issues with stability and ankle sprains. Plenty of anecdotes of them fixing knee injuries and plantar fasciitis.

    The only negative comments you pick up online about them are the jokes by the fan boys who have never worn them.
     
  16. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    The fan boys are minimalist shoe advocates. I suppose maximalist shoe advocates are fan girls?

    There are plenty of anecdotes about them causing knee pain, but we all know the value of anecdotal evidence. I personally know of 3 or 4 ultrarunners who had to stop wearing Hoka One Ones due to knee pain that developed after wearing the shoes. I remember posting an email on this forum from one of them a year or two ago. With time we will learn who these work for and who they don't. Unfortunately people tend to follow fads so everyone will think they are the next running panacea.
     
  17. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Is this new trend in running shoe fashion for 2014?
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Active Member

    Aloha,

    Craig thank you for adopting the term "Maximalist"

    Kevin has previously tried to define Minimalism.
    If i may continue to help define the term Maximalism so we do not use it for the wrong type of footwear.

    Maximalist footwear are developed to "maximally" enhance the protective properties (ie puncture, fire, blast) of footwear, enhance the energy efficiency (ie lower O2 demands), and enhance the stability (ie more stable base of gait).

    I am not sure how extra depth soft foam shoes can fufill these conditions.

    Now Simon is on to something, please remember that cushioning systems do not have to be made out of just foam. My pickup truck has a leaf spring system to cushion the bed of the truck to midigate heavy loads and so does a certain newly patented advanced composite spring lever orhtotic system.

    Mahalo,
    Steve

    Dr. Steven King DPM CPED
    American Society of Testing Materials member
    -F13 Footwear Traction and Safety Committee
    -E54 Homeland Security Applications and Body Armor
     
  19. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
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    Some could see the writing on the wall a while back; these maximalist shoes must have been in development for some time now. Just caught this comment:
    Trend Report: How Performance Footwear Will Change in Spring 2014
     
  20. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    "An expected change this year for performance footwear is watching the pendulum slowly change from the minimalism of the past five years to a sudden focus on maximalism"

    I understand when "performance" is used to imply racing, I don't get it if "performance" is implying training. In any case, I can't wait to see the 10-12+ ounce maximalized racing flats.

    Maybe "performance" is meant to imply over priced.

    I think it is great that these huge shoes are part of the running alternative, I just don't see them as the solution for everyone or any sort of running panacea. They are nothing more than over cushioned shoes, they either help your running or they don't.
     
  21. mr2pod

    mr2pod Active Member

    I just see this as another niche market being swallowed up by the "big boys" of the running shoe world. Hoka had been producing these shoes for a while now, and its obvious at most ultra distance events they are very popular.
    Look at the minimalist trend - niche market taken on/over by the big boys.
    The likes of Brooks, NB, Nike etc still produce the "traditional" shoe. The minimalist, and now maximalist will just sit either side as they broaden the offerings and attempt to take more of the market share.
     
  22. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Active Member

    Aloha,

    Let's think about this a bit...

    How does more of the same qualify as maximalist???

    ie thicker softer foam shoes

    I love my Grandma but I would not like to run a marathon on her feather bed...

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E5eoZNdlzck

    What honestly is Maximalism?

    Mahalo,
    Steve
     
  23. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
  24. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
    Press Release:
    The Brooks Transcend Revolutionizes How Runners Experience Stability and Cushioning
     
  25. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6


     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  26. Here is my introduction of the original "maximalist" Hoka One One shoes to the greater USA podiatry community two years ago on Barry Block's PM News:

    http://www.podiatrym.com/pmnewsissues.cfm?pubdate=08/13/2011
     
  27. Andrew Ayres

    Andrew Ayres Active Member

    Will running shops move away from selling trainers based on foot type and gait analysis and move more towards recommending trainers based on the hardness of the intended running surface. Eg soft surface such as sand, little or no cushioning. As the surface hardens increase midsole softness and thickness.
     
  28. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Nope.
     
  29. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    Not wanting to take too much attention away from the Brooks Transcend - but still on topic i.e. cushioning... I really can't see myself training in a Hoka One One (just sense they're not suited to me personally) - I'm curious on how a training session would go/feel within the shoe but I'm not going to fork out the $230 (internet price) for a shoe I can't see myself wearing too often (if at all - come to think of it, maybe they could be good for recovery runs where it's ideal to reduce the GRF).

    Anyway, a shoe within the cushioning range that has been on my mind has been the On range - particularly the On Cloudracer - particularly for longer races i.e. Marathon.

    Has anybody had any experience with the On range, or have heard any feedback of them. When they first came out I did read on a running forum that one guy was having an issue with the durability of the rubber elements (i.e. breaking - but he was a heavy build from memory). I know these shoes have been discussed on this forum before but just wanting any further feedback a few years down the track.
     
  30. Andrew Ayres

    Andrew Ayres Active Member

    I wore a pair for a 2-3 min run on a treadmill at the London marathon a few years ago. They seemed a bit gimmicky and I've not seen much about them since. My main thought at the time was 'how long will the rubber last'.
     
  31. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
    All the reports I have seen are the Hoka's are lasting as long as any other running shoe (ie ~500 miles); I have seen a few reports of them lasting >1000 miles.
     
  32. Andrew Ayres

    Andrew Ayres Active Member

    Sorry Craig I was replying to Ben-hurs last post re On Cloud Racer. I'm yet to have a go with Hokas
     
  33. As an aside to this whole maximalist running shoe thread, Deckers Outdoor Corporation bought the Hoka One One brand now about a year ago. The CEO of Deckers is Angel Martinez (see recent head shot of Angel below) who has also been the CEO of Rockport, helped start and became CEO of Keen and was also Chief Marketing Officer for Reebok. Here is a bio of Angel....pretty incredible story from rags to riches.

    Why is this all significant to me? Angel and I were teammates on the UC Davis Aggie cross country team. He was our top runner when I was a sophomore on team. Here is a photo I took of Angel leading the race at Bidwell Park in Chico, California, in which he won the Far West Conference Cross-Country Championship race in 1977. Angel was very fast and was also instrumental in creating the Aggie Running Club. Angel and I were both members of the original 13 man Bay to Breakers Centipede which we helped create back in 1978 (see photo).

    By the way, in the centipede photo, I'm third from the front with the red-yarn hat in my hand in this photo of us from at the start of the 1978 Bay to Breakers...the first ever Bay to Breakers Centipede!
     
  34. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    Thanks Andy for the feedback on the On shoe. Durability does seem to be an issue with this style (i.e. the rubber cushioning elements) - probability more so for some runners (i.e. heavier &/or with more "shuffling" gait) than others.

    Probably best I check them out in person... as well as the Hoka shoe.
     
  35. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Active Member

    Aloha,

    Is there a correlation between "super-sizing" these shoes and a reduction of orthotic correction?

    i.e. is it more difficult to hold the correction of a corrective device on a thicker softer foam platform?

    What research has been done on this?
    Any solid conclusions?

    Mahalo,
    Steve

    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

    Albert Einstein


    Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/alberteins133991.html#KRQ3Y11loCRjXWiW.99
     
  36. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Active Member

    Aloha,

    I humbly disagree with Kevin's comments that the latest "super sized" foam shoes qualify as maximalist shoes.

    Posted in Podiatry Management Webzine by Dr. Barry Block.

    RE: Maximalist Running Shoes are In, Minimalist Running Shoes are Out
    From: Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
    Over the last five years, there was a rise in interest in barefoot and "minimalist" running, along with an increase in runners getting injured by trying to transition into barefoot and/or minimalist shoe running. Two years ago, here on PM News, I mentioned a new shoe that I had run in, the Hoka One One, which I had thought represented a new design breakthrough and a new shoe category, the "maximalist shoe". Hoka One One running shoes have much thicker and more cushioned midsoles and have become increasingly popular, especially in the ultra-marathon and trail running community.

    Recently, other running shoe manufacturers have taken notice of the popularity and success of the Hoka shoe and are now jumping on the "maximalist shoe bandwagon" with their own form of thick-soled, highly cushioned midsole running shoes. Most notable in this category is the newly released Brooks Transcend shoe, which has a much thicker, cushioned midsole, like the Hoka.

    At the same time, minimalist shoes, such as the Vibram FiveFinger shoe, are on closeout specials throughout the country as runners are increasingly voting with their feet and wallets to move away from the much-hyped, questionable benefits of barefoot and minimalist shoe running. I suggest all podiatrists who do treat runners to go to their local specialty running shoe stores and inspect and test-wear both the Hoka and Brooks Transcend running shoes that will likely represent the latest trend in running shoe design: the maximalist running shoe.

    Kevin A. Kirby, DPM, Sacramento, CA, kevinakirby@comcast.net

    Aloha,
    Before we make judgement on the proper definition of "maximalism" perhaps we could apply a scientific approach to defining the term.

    One of the bigger issues our fellow foot care providers have had with the minimalist shoe trend has been a reduction of the protective qualities. If Maximalism is to be the contrast to minimalism then maximalist shoes must be designed with significant and testable safety features such as increase in puncture protection. The American Society of Testing Materials and SATRA has accepted safety test standards currently in place and for the safety of our patients we should start to use them on more of our footwear choices.

    Energy efficiency of gait needs to be addressed when defining this term. If minimalism restricts the use of exterior influences of footwear maximalism will embrace it. The Orthotics and Prothetics Industry has done wonders with the new advanced designs using advanced composite carbon fiber enough to enable bilateral leg amputees to compete in the Olympics. Future maximalist designs should also include powered gait systems. Maximalist footwear must be able to significantly enhance the efficiency of gait.

    Stability of gait will also need to be addressed. Maximalist footwear must test significant improvements in the stabilization of the user during gait and stance.

    Mahalo,
    Dr. Steven King
    Maui Hawaii

    American Society of Testing Materials
    F13 Footwear Safety and Traction Committee Member
    E54 Homeland Security Applications and Body Armor Committee Member
    Managing Member Kingetics LLC
    Co-Principal Investigator SBIR A11-109 "Advanced Composite Insoles for the Reduction of Stress Fractures." US Department of Defense and Army Medical Research and Materials Command.
     
  37. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Active Member

    Aloha,
    Mechanically how are these latest "super sized" foam shoes different than the MBT "super sized" foam shoes that helped push the minimalist trend in the first place?

    Mahalo,
    Steve
     
  38. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Ian's response to: Originally Posted by Andy A
    Will running shops move away from selling trainers based on foot type and gait analysis and move more towards recommending trainers based on the hardness of the intended running surface. Eg soft surface such as sand, little or no cushioning. As the surface hardens increase midsole softness and thickness.

    Running shops have been selling trail running shoes for almost 20 yrs now. Not a statement about moving away from foot type and gait analysis but certainly in line with matching a running shoe to the intended running surface.

    The characteristics of trail running shoes cover a broad range so they are difficult to describe with a finite set of characteristics. Initially, it was the hiking boot companies that first came out with the concept. Specifically Solomon and The North Face. They were followed by Montrail, Vasque and Merrell. After sales picked up, of course the major shoe companies jumped on the band wagon. The initial trail shoes tended to have more rugged or cleated outsoles, firmer, thinner midsoles, were stiffer, had a rubber toe bumper and put your foot closer to the ground (limit ankle sprains). The problem I always had with the early trail running shoes is they tended to be even heavier than road shoes.

    Hoka one one has both trail and road models. One of the primary reasons Hoka has been popular in the ultra running community is because one of the top ultra runners, Karl Meltzer has been anecdotaly endorsing them. Karl has been winning over 60% of the 100 mile trail runs that he enters. Ultra runners are no different than the rest of the running community with respect to looking for the magic pill that is going to turn them into an elite runner. Since Karl endorses the Hoka, they must be the reason he is winning all of those races.

    When asked about running on trails in the Hokas, Karl has had a few things to say. He describes them as "mushing out" the rocks. Rather than focusing on foot placement to avoid landing on sharp rocks, you can just run over them and mush them out. When asked if there are problems with ankle sprains, he described the thick mushy midsole as slowing down the rotation of your ankle. I assume that allows more time to react and adjust as well as providing a less violent twist. What he didn't say is whether or not the frequency of ankle twists increases in Hokas or not.

    The part I really don't get with wearing mushy soles on soft surfaces is that from a physics standpoint, you need a firm surface to push off of for propulsion. If the ground and shoe are not going to provide that "stiffness" your feet and legs will compensate. That compensation will take from efficiency and encourage fatigue.

    Karl Meltzer is good enough to win races in probably any shoe, what is not known is the financial influence Hoka might have on his endorsements.

    Now that Hoka One One has some market attention, of course the major shoe companies are going to come out with their version. They have done it with trail shoes, minimal shoes and now maximal shoes. Each time this happens each running shoe company claims they have had a miraculous technology break through and that their shoe is the answer to all of your dreams and problems.

    The jury is still out on maximalism. For me, I'm going to wait for the 5 toed version of maximal shoes to come out.
     
  39. Andrew Ayres

    Andrew Ayres Active Member

    I've been asking a few of my running mates, mainly amateur ultra distance and trail runners about their experiences of hoka one ones. They generally don't have much praise form them. The main criticisms are poor grip on wet rock and ankle sprains. They do however like the fact that they can't feel the terrain after 6 hours running.

    I think left foot in a VFF and right foot in a hoka one one is the future. Makes traversing a steep hill much easier.
     
  40. From what I have heard from the runners I talk to, the Hoka is great for running downhill, not so great for running uphill and makes the legs feel less fatigued over ultramarathon distances. I haven't heard of any ankle instability issues or slipperiness on wet surfaces. However, they are still not being worn by lots of runners who aren't ultramarathoners or trail runners from what I see. In other words, they aren't for everybody, plus they are about 50% more expensive than other running shoes.

    It will be interesting to see how 2014 will shape up for the running shoe market since thicker soled, highly cushioned running shoes, like the Hoda, will likely be much more common, from what I have heard.
     
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