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Effect of maximalist running shoes on ground reaction forces

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by NewsBot, May 28, 2015.

  1. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
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    Effect of Highly Cushioned Shoes on Ground Reaction Forces during Running
    Matthew Ruder, Phatarapon Atimetin, Erin Futrell, Irene Davis.
    Presented at the ACSM Meeting; San Diego May 2015
     
  2. Admin2

    Admin2 Administrator Staff Member

  3. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    The shoes used in the study were Hoka Stinsons.
     
  4. efuller

    efuller MVP

    There are studies that show that people change their running style on different surfaces. A cushioned shoe is a different surface. On harder surfaces people tend to flex their knee more to create a less stiff spring at contact. There are probably higher internal forces with more knee flexion.

    Then there is the problem that there is not much correlation between impact forces and injury.

    Peoples knees might feel better if the internal forces are lower and choose a shoe with more cushioning. Hence the sales data.
    Just theorizing
    Eric
     
  5. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    indeed... one study even linked higher impacts to less injuries!
     
  6. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

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  7. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Very first sentence:
    What manufacturers are claiming that? They just making that up.
     
  8. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

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  9. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    I just went checking on some of the fan boy communities for their take on this study... highly amusing. ... they just don't do science very well at all!

    Not one of them is condemning the sample size of 5 (in the abstract) or 14 (in the final presentation); yet when they see a study they don't like they ridicule sample sizes like that ... go figure!
     
  10. William Fowler

    William Fowler Active Member

    From that article
    Does there own data show that this does not happen? The impacts from the Hoka were the same as from the traditional shoe, so they are not slamming the foot down.
     
  11. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Good catch; that is indeed the case and their own data shows it. The fan boys also missed that as well!
     
  12. Consider the source. Irene Davis has been a barefoot running advocate for many years and told me that the goal of her practice is to get all of her patients out of orthotics.

    Whatever...

    I believe the data shows that the impact loading rates are greater in barefoot running than in running shoes. We don't even know if impact forces are the cause of running injuries or not! My guess that most running injuries are caused by repetitive levels of higher magnitudes of internal moments, not impact forces.
     
  13. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    BTW, the "traditional running shoe" used in the study was the Nike Air Pegasus.

    ...which means they compared a cushioned running shoe to a cushioned running shoe and the cushioned running shoe did not reduce impacts forces compared to a cushioned running shoe ... go figure!
     
  14. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Just to clarify on the sample size of the study. The abstract as submitted for the conference only had 5 subjects due to timelines and deadlines of abstract submissions. At the conference they presented the data on 14 subjects. In the Medscape article linked above is the data from the 14 ... it is not really any different to the data on the 5 in the abstract.

    Is 14 adequate? I guess that depends if you like the results of the study! I did notice in one fan boy group that they are having wet dreams over this study. Not once is anyone criticizing the sample size, yet in that group they regularly condemn other studies with bigger sample sizes just because they don't like the results .... go figure!

    I do not have a problem with the sample size .... even though it is on the smaller side. It is a within subjects design (ie subjects act as their own controls) and you can get away with a smaller group in these types of designs. If you look at the data for the 5 subjects and then the 14 subjects, there is no hint of a trend or any differences. What is a larger study size going to show?
     
  15. David Smith

    David Smith Well-Known Member

  16. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha,

    Craig you are a Rational Genius and a honored member of the No Dah Delegation.

    "...which means they compared a cushioned running shoe to a cushioned running shoe and the cushioned running shoe did not reduce impacts forces compared to a cushioned running shoe ... go figure!"


    I think we are missing an important research concept.

    The inside verses outside of the shoe measurements.

    Doing an instrumented treadmill analysis is great if you want the data after it has been modified by the subject shoe system. WE ARE READING THROUGH FOAM.

    We should try to limit comparing one shoe vs another and test more what the shoe does as it contacts the ground and body separately. strange but simple. Then compare the systems.

    We need inside and outside shoe data to compare the true results of the shoe system and not to just compare it to another similar shoe.

    But we do not do that very well and the advanced testing systems to do this are still in their infancy and are being developed by a few renegades.

    A hui hou,
    Steve

    Why is Podiatry Arena again headlining this article as maximalism whereas the authors did not?

    Maximalism must prove significant quantifiable improvements in protection, energy efficiency, stability, and greenability.


    This is not maximalism it is super sizing foam shoes.
     
  17. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

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  18. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

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    Arthur, K. Kinetic and kinematic comparison ofHOKA shoes to standard running shoes.
    MS in Clinical Exercise Physiology, December 2015, 52pp. (J. Porcari)
     
  19. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

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    Does maximalist footwear lower impact loading during level ground and downhill running?
    Zoe Y. S. Chan et al
    European Journal of Sport Science : 24 May 2018
     
  20. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha,
    It would have been cool and groovy had they also used acelerometers on the shins and lower backs of the subject while running on the downhill pressure map treadmill.
    How else do you really find out what the shoe-orthotic systems are doing.
    They read through all that thick foam again and then assumed that is what the body felt?

    Maximialism must show significant and testable improvements in stability, protection, energy efficiency and greenability.
    It is the Inverse of Minimalism. and not just in size and shape please.

    Mahalo,
    Steve

    For those of you in the countdown to graduations in the study of the mechanics of human movement and ambulation
    "Your the Rockenist Cats in Galaxy"!

     
  21. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
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    Effect of the cushioning running shoes in ground contact time of phases of gait
    AndreaRoca-Dolsa et al
    Journal of the Mechanical Behavior of Biomedical Materials
    Volume 88, December 2018, Pages 196-200

     
  22. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
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    Shoe cushioning affects lower extremity joint contact forces during running
    Stacey A. Meardon et al
    Footwear Science: 16 Nov 2018
     
  23. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
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    Comparison of in-shoe plantar loading forces between minimalist and maximalist cushion running shoes
    Jena Kay Ogston
    Footwear Science : 12 Feb 2019
     
  24. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
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    A 6-Week Transition to Maximal Running Shoes Does Not Change Running Biomechanics.
    Hannigan JJ, Pollard CD
    Am J Sports Med. 2019 Mar;47(4):968-973
     
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