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Things I've Always Wondered But Been too Embarrassed to Ask

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by Robertisaacs, Jul 29, 2009.

  1. Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    What WERE Root's 8 criteria for "normalcy"?

    If Root defined STJN as the point in which the STJ is neither pronated nor supinated who came up with the talar head congruency and when?

    When was pod arena born and what was the first thread about?

    Do other peoples wives shout at them to "Get off that ****ing forum"?

    Does anyone else have an uneasy feeling that even if they WANTED to quit this forum, they couldn't?

    Why is it that there are so many lurkers who never post and what would make them willing to?

  2. Foot Doc

    Foot Doc Active Member

    Hi Robert,

    Great post.............I think i can answer a few of those questions.....I think.....

    1. I might be wrong, but i think Root had 7 criteria for normalcy and here they are

    - Tibia and Calcaneus must be vertical
    -STJ must be in neutral
    -MTJ axes lovked in their pronated position
    -All metatarsals in contact with the ground
    -Forefoot parallel to the rearfoot
    -No muscle support necessary to maintain structural integrity of the foot, and what might or might not be the last
    -Gatrocnemius contraction exerts a nearly continual plantar flexory force at the ankle joint, loading the forefoot

    AND 2...................YES, MY WIFE TELLS ME TO GET OFF THE !@#$ING FORUM. LOL

    Hope this helps,

    Cheers..........GOTTA RUN, I CAN HEAR MY WIFE COMING...................

  3. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    3. By my calculations the arena was born on 20th August 2004

    4. My girlfriend often jokes that there are 3 of us in our relationship
  4. cpoc103

    cpoc103 Active Member


    Hi Robert, not sure about anyone else, but I have only recently started to post on the arena and have been a lurker for almost 2 years now. I guess for me having only graduated a few years ago, I felt a little overwhelmed/ intimidated by the magnitude of people/ world class posteres. I guess for me it was like your question here I didn't want to sound like I knew nothing at all and look embarressed......hhhhmmmmmm not sure...as for q. about the arena Im pretty sure it had a part to play in my breakup lol....

  5. Craig how do you sleep at night? Homewrecker!:boohoo: It gets worse if you have an Iphone. I get caught surrepticiously checking threads when I should be washing up:eek:.

    Podiatry Arena, Causing domestic Rows since 2004:drinks. That would make it 5 next month! There should be a party!

    Would number 8 be calc bisection perpendicular to the ground? I don't know! I've not seen a copy of the magnum opus for a decade!

    Hey Col. As a good friend once told me, ask a silly question and you're a fool for a moment. Don't ask and you'll be a fool for the rest of your life. Welcome to the happy land of having the guts to post :drinks! It gets easier with practice. And I suspect most of the world class postures ;) on here have lot more respect for the people who ask an honest, if basic, question than for those who don't, or worse those who try to hide their ignorance by making up their own version of the science then trying to get everyone else to buy it!

    In fact, tell you what. Thread rule. If you answer a question you have to ask another. Doesn't have to be profound, just ask SOMETHING. Then you can say you have;).

    Perhaps we should start a support group. Spouses Widowed by Excessive Enjoyment of Podiatry.
  6. deco

    deco Active Member

    4 Wife gives out **** when she sees me on forum, She even knows who Payne, Kirby and Spooner are
  7. Mine too!

    Fortunately she doesn't know where they live though!;):butcher:
  8. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    My Mrs is also familiar with these legends. She's even threatened to cancel our road trip of California next year in concern that I will try and blag a day or two in Sacremento. She definately wouldn't ever accompany me to Melbourne for the same reason. Or Plymouth ;)
  9. MY very understanding and caring better half hates you all. Not really, but she does say things like "will you get away from that ****ing computer and come and be part of this family every once in while." about twice a day, every day.

    She really does know Kevin, Craig and Eric and others. In fact, I needed Kevin's home number a couple of weeks ago and she said, I've got his mobile number if that's any good. Why did she have Kevin's mobile number when I didn't?:D

    Root's biophysical criteria for normalcy and more here:
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2009
  10. Ian:

    You wouldn't be the first British podiatrist to spend some time in Sacramento with me and my family. Famous British podiatrists such as Raymond Anthony, Dr. Chris Nester and Dr. Simon Spooner have all been here and..........they all share one thing in common....when on the basketball court, you can immediately tell that they didn't spend enough time playing basketball in their youth!;)
  11. Ella Hurrell

    Ella Hurrell Active Member

    Ian, think that's a challenge from Kevin........don't tell the Mrs!!
  12. twirly

    twirly Well-Known Member

    Hello all,

    Personally, Himself loves Podiatry Arena :confused:

    I can't imagine why. :boohoo:

    The computer is in the other room so the poor love must miss me so much when I'm online.......... :empathy:

    I vow to spend more 'together' time with Him. He'll like that. ;)

    Hmmmmm....... :rolleyes:
  13. Thats fair enough.

    Of course they could have showed you how to play a good English game like rugby, only you Americans have to struggle into 100lbs of body armour for a game of rugby so I guess it would have taken too long:D ;)

  14. Robert:

    Even though rugby is just now starting to catch on in popularity in the States, it looks like a fun game. The orthopedic surgeon I practiced with for 16 years, and two of his sons, all played on the US Junior National Rugby Team.

    American football is a very different game from rugby no matter what those unfamiliar with American football believe. The padding (about 10 pounds total, including shoulder pads and thigh pads) and helmets are there to protect the players from serious and potentially fatal injuries, which certainly makes sense considering the amount of money professional athletes make here in the States and considering the number of deaths and paralyzing injuries that occur even with this amount of protection to high school and college athletes. I never played American football with pads or helmets as a youth, but wouldn't dream of playing American football without these levels of protection at the high school or college or pro level given the mass, velocity and types of collisions that are legally allowed on the American football field. It is a great game, but please don't think it is just a rugby game with pads and helmets.
  15. :rolleyes:

    If you say so.;)

    Is this for real by the way? Some kind of crazy!


    On a marginally serious note, do we have a definitive answer on those root criteria? Did footdoc state them correctly?

  16. Please don't think that the impact forces are any lower in rugby than they are in American football. The masses, velocities and types of collisions are very very similar. My knee is testament to this:
    Orthopaedic surgeon: "and all of this damage was from one impact- right?"
    Me: "yes"
    Orthopaedic surgeon: "No really you must have damaged this previously and carried on playing on it"
    Me: "No, I've never damaged it before"
    Orthopaedic surgeon: "and how big was the guy that hit you?"
    Me: "about 20 stone, running full tilt"
    Orthopaedic surgeon "oh"

    Never mind the legal, it's the illegal ones you need to watch.

    American football is very similar to rugby league in many respects. Many rugby players wear pads these days and some wear scrum caps too.
  17. Simon:

    From what I can see, rugby is definitely a more macho sport than American football. And, I suppose, being macho, in this case, may be defined as an increased possibility of being killed, paralyzed or suffering permanent damage to a major joint of the body.

    Good luck with your knee.:drinks
  18. Robert:

    I guess you are right, American football must be for the non-macho types since they wear pads and helmets. There have only been over 1,500 fatalities reported over the past 75 years due to playing American football with pads and helmets. I guess we should not use pads and helmets in American football so we can be more macho like the rugby players and increase the number of deaths and permanent paralysis in our youth and young adults.:bang:

    Last edited: Jul 29, 2009
  19. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Well I for one bloody love American Football. My 'Superbowl Slumber Parties' for the last 2 decades are testiment to that. And last autumn I was lucky enough to catch a game over here in London - it was awesome. Can't think why I love it so much...

    Attached Files:

  20. Lawrence Bevan

    Lawrence Bevan Active Member

    I have to agree with Kevin on this one.

    The nature of the "tackle" in gridiron compared to rugby is different. The tackle in rugby is supposed to be one of wrapping up with the arms around the legs/body of the individual tackled. The legal tackle in gridiron is an out and out "hit" and I believe it illegal to use your hands or arms to hold the individual being tackled. Thus the shoulder charge - illegal in rugby - is the preferred method in gridiron and almost always this leads to injury to the tackler and tackled when done unprotected.

    I imagine many of the fatal or near-fatal injuries in gridiron are when this shoulder charge goes wrong leading to a head or cervical trauma?
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2009
  21. twirly

    twirly Well-Known Member

    Still off thread so I apologise. :eek:

    I just have to ask.

    I understand most things in life involve an element of risk although I find it difficult to appreciate & understand why individuals select a sporting activity which so greatly increases the risk of disability/injury.

    I understand rugby players have been known to tape their ears to their heads before a match as it is a real possibility an ear could be ripped off in a scrum!
    Kevin mentions deaths & horrific injuries in American football.

    I can also appreciate that some need to prove themselves in competition. Why though in such dangerous activities?

    This is not a sarcastic question just a desire to better understand.

    Many thanks.

  22. Kevin, I wished I could be deep as well as macho. It's just never happened. As for basketball out front- I'm willing to bet you haven't even got a hoop now. Age catching up on you? I'd love another chance to go one on one, but unfortunately my knee isn't up to it. And as I recall, it was Cam that made all the plays anyway. Good memories:D:drinks
  23. Basketball IS a safer game. All teasing aside rugby and A F, like boxing and martial arts are inherently dangerous sports and those who play them know the risks they take. Of course if protective gear cuts the risk it should be required.

    By americans AND us.

  24. Lawrence, it's been too long since you played. It's definitely all about the "hit" these days. If you hit hard enough with your shoulder your arm will inevitably come around faking the "wrapping up". There's no pressure on the arm, it's all on the shoulder and it's aimed at the rib-cage to wrap man an ball. My coach awards "wets" for the best hits during a match- lower body scores low, upper body scores high. To be honest, I think this has been the result of the introduction of pads in rugby.
  25. Lawrence Bevan

    Lawrence Bevan Active Member

    Mind you, its oft said "a 10 % increase in protective equipment leads to a 100% increase in injury"

    Does wearing protective padding in rugby lead to an increase in the odd cheeky hit rather than proper tackle?
  26. cpoc103

    cpoc103 Active Member

    Simon I have to agree with you 100% it is all about the hard hits the shoulder with a slight ATTEMPT to wrap....and yes we have a similar game we play here in the south...who ever gets the biggest hit of the game gets a beer from all the team. Does get a bit messy though, although does take away the pain from the game....as my orthopod has told me his words" your an idiot if you play again" well I might give it one more try......such a good game.

    Mandy it is hard to explain why we play such games I just love the physicality of it all, and am sick of bloody footballers rolling around the floor if you touch them with your pinky finger.....

    col. :drinks
  27. Because, it's a war. Not my words the words of my physio (female). When I realised that my rugby days were over, I said "I suppose I need to find something to replace rugby". She (having just come back from a trek to the pole; she did the same competition that Ben Fogal and James Cracknell did recently, as shown on the BBC) said "you won't, there is no sport on the planet that will get you adrenaline rushing in the same way that rugby does, it's a battle, it's a war for 80 mins". She used to play herself. Brilliant insight from a girl. Be sure of this, my daughter will never play rugby. Rugby- "A contact sport for men, played on the feet". What other team contact sports do we have in the UK?
  28. Lawrence Bevan

    Lawrence Bevan Active Member

    Mandy, of late donning a pair of gloves and stepping in to the ring has been a way of getting a bit of exercise. I can only say that the pain is worth it! Its a man thing - something about comradeship.
  29. Lawrence Bevan

    Lawrence Bevan Active Member

    "Respect" is I believe the vernacular old chap. ;)
  30. Last edited: Jul 29, 2009
  31. I think it's the Robbins-Gouwe hypothesis all over. You hit to the point of hurt, the more padding you have, the harder you can (have to) hit to get the same hurt.
  32. Lawrence Bevan

    Lawrence Bevan Active Member

    give it a go mate, it's not that bad. No worse than a "99" call.....

    Anyway, one way of making lurkers contribute is the odd off-topic thread eh?....:drinks

    Back to the topic (ish) anyone agree with the content of Chris Nesters lecture referenced by Simon?
  33. markjohconley

    markjohconley Well-Known Member

    I too have my 'red badges of courage' including ACL rupture'72, 3 known #'s of nose, depressed fracture of cheekbone '71.
    Nursed (in another life) several quadraplegics post rugby >> never let my sons play it though my youngest watches the All-Blacks, Boks, French games with me.
    Love the American football, the tactics & skill.
    Testosterone has a lot to answer for, doesn't it.
  34. nickita

    nickita Member

    !) Mrs McKinnis always taught "there is no such thing as normal!" you already know this!:bang:

    2) after allmost 10yrs post graduation you need to know this now? err why?? this makes watching Eastenders look appealing... you need to get out more with your wife!

    3) again you need to know this now????????......:sinking:

    4) thats what a good divorce lawyers is for!... but sadly boyfriends also make these comments too... or just look over your shoulder and say "my god thats boring i'll go watch Eastenders" :bang: (for answer about wife see question 2)

    5) yep!:deadhorse:

    6) posts like this.... :drinks:

    thanks for brightening up a rather dull paperfilled morning!:good:
  35. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Forum open since: 20th August 2004 (oldest thread)
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    Oldest thread: Podiatrists as 'doctors' row
  36. stevewells

    stevewells Active Member

  37. Hmmmmm

    I think I know you.


  38. Root's 8 biophysical criteria for "normalcy" are listed in the illustration below (Root ML, Orien WP, Weed JH, RJ Hughes: Biomechanical Examination of the Foot, Volume 1. Clinical Biomechanics Corporation, Los Angeles, 1971, p. 34.)

    Contrary to popular belief, neither Merton Root, John Weed, or William Orien ever taught that the proper way to find subtalar joint (STJ) neutral position was to palpate for talo-navicular congruency. In fact, they describe in their book on neutral position casting, how to position the foot in its neutral position as follows:

    I believe that as "Root biomechanics" began to filter back to the east coast of the US in the 1970's, the largest east coast orthosis lab started teaching using talo-navicular congruency as the way to determine STJ neutral position, which is something that, I know for certain, infuriated both Mert Root and John Weed, since they both knew that this was not a good indicator of STJ neutral position and was fraught with error. In fact, during my early student years during the 1979-1982, I was given a poster from Langer Lab that described STJ neutral position casting which stated that the talo-navicular joint must be palpated to determine STJ neutral position.

    This erroneous idea that talo-navicular congruency was somehow indicative of STJ neutral then seemed to spread to the UK and elsewhere, probably from the largest east coast orthosis lab teaching this technique abroad. That is my best estimation of how this all happened from what I heard and observed during my association with California College/School of Podiatric Medicine over the past 30 years.

    Attached Files:

  39. Kevin you are a prince amongst men! Thankyou.

    Fascinating story about stn. I knew that congruency was not how root orien and Weed described it so I was fascinated as to where it came from!

    I wonder where sheldon got the idea from!

  40. Robert:

    If you look at only the photo of their "STJ medial-lateral palpation technique" in "Neutral Position Casting Techniques" and don't take the time to read the text describing the photo, then this is a very easy assumption to make. My guess is that this is probably what happened.

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