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TOG gait scan

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by Simon Spooner, Feb 14, 2007.

  1. Last edited: Feb 14, 2007
  2. LCBL

    LCBL Active Member

    PMSL....for ages.


    Ireland = no regulation = loads of sales to chiro types = shed load of profit

    UK = limited sales = no profit

    Their strategy = concentrate on getting current users to SELL more pairs of orthotics to their patients....sod it if they dont need them...the TOG says they do so SELLLLLLL


    *sigh* Someday I'll really say what I think.

    NOTE: I believe non-UK users can't see the video feed linked :(
  3. LCBL

    LCBL Active Member

    TOG Gaitscan: They just don't stop.....

    Reproduced word for word, spelling mistake for spelling mistake. Any comments? Anyone ever hear of the eminent speaker?

  4. DaVinci

    DaVinci Well-Known Member

    It astounds me that people actually fall for this.
    Who? I can find anything published by him. "Leading figure?" I don't think so.
  5. LCBL

    LCBL Active Member

    This is their blurb on him.

  6. LCBL

    LCBL Active Member


  7. EdYip

    EdYip Active Member

    I've never heard of Dr Ross, but I am definitely aware of TOG - their head office is near my home.

    TOG has historically targeted physio and chiropractic clinics as their clients. Most podiatrists and chiropodists in Ontario know better than to use their products. Their marketing package is very appealing to the PTs and DC's because it is very simple to use and because most of their orthotics are generally flexible and low profile, making them very "wearable" for the patients. This new computer scanning system is also appealing to practitioners, especially those who are too lazy or uninformed to formulate their own diagnosis.

    Every week, I get patients who wear TOG orthotics that are completely ineffective, so there is good reason for my disdain toward their products. I've got to hand it to TOG, though - their marketing is top-notch.
  8. Jonathan

    Jonathan Active Member

    I haven't seen their products but if their business integrity is on a comparable to their orthotics – then I don’t. Their performance was shameful.
  9. leslietrotter

    leslietrotter Member

    As far as I am aware, Kim Ross's PhD work is focused on the cervical spine not the foot. I have met him several times and he is a very pleasant man.

    That aside, I think your collective suspicions are more accurately aimed at the lab rather than the Speaker. Chiropractors are not specifically trained in the art and science of orthotic prescription, fabrication and dispensing. But as already mentioned the majority of TOG's business comes from chiros and perhaps "like teaching like" is the philosophy?

    My personal experience was that I tried to obtain a "tour" of the Ontario facility to determine whether the orthoses were being fabricated from a volumetic cast and whether they are "patient specific" or not. The bottom line was that I was denied access and unable to make this determination. I do find it odd that access to such basic information is guarded by TOG. The act of fabricating orthoses is not a patented process and I have yet to see any truly unique custom-made procedures in the 17 years that I have been in practise. As someone who works for several insurance companies in "claims investigations" as the orthotic lab/fabrication expert, I have never previously (or since) been declined access to any lab.
    Make of that what you will...
  10. LCBL

    LCBL Active Member


    Step 1: 2D pressure reading
    Step 2: ??????
    Step 3: 3D plastic shell

    Step 2 is the magic step that answers all our queries. However, the big question for me that has never been answered is this:

    Out of the 1000's of ''assessments'' the system has done, how many resulted in the outcome '' no orthoses needed''?
  11. leslietrotter

    leslietrotter Member

    Yes, curious isn't it?...no volumetric cast needed...perhaps that is the guarded secret? It's like making mens' suits from a photograph!

    I just received this site from one of my insurance contacts. http://www.ourfootdoctor.com
    I can't speak for those from other countries, however, I am quite certain that most Canadian podiatrists would be unable (and unwilling) to make a diagnosis over the phone and receive a "patient-fabricated" foam box impression in order to process a claim.
    Are the USA Pods OK with these guys?
  12. Richard Chasen

    Richard Chasen Active Member

    Over and above whether their products work, whether their marketing is appropriate or whether they allow facility tours, none of which I plan to comment on here, I have another pertinent point for anyone planning to purchase this system.

    The chiropractor in the room next door to mine has one of these Gaitscans. It's been out of action for almost six months and during this time, despite TOG sending her bills, the unit remains untouched by their technicians, rendering her not only unable to use their products, but probably significantly out of pocket on her initial investment. Glad it wasn't me.
  13. LuckyLisfranc

    LuckyLisfranc Well-Known Member

    Just to put a different perspective on things.

    I don't, nor believe that it is sensible, to use the TOG approach to orthoses manufacture. I do, however, own one of their GaitScan systems in my practice, and I have used it routinely during my work-up for foot orthoses for the past 3 years.

    I still cast my orthoses and use a reliable podiatric lab which produces consistent, reliable results, - but the qualitative information from the TOG pressure mat is very useful, quite cost-effective (for non-research, clinical purposes) and occasionally throws up surprising results which can and do alter my prescription approach, particularly for the neuropathic foot. It's main purpose in my practice though is a patient education tool. I suspect it makes an impact on compliance when patients can "see" what the mechanical issues are with their foot function (eg pre-ulcerative lesions etc).

    Don't get me wrong, I agree with all of the sentiments previously - but I thought I would at least put some balance into the debate with respect to the gait analysis system itself. Yes - good clinical skills will tell you 99% of this information as well, but I think it does have a place in some environments.

  14. CraigT

    CraigT Well-Known Member

  15. LuckyLisfranc

    LuckyLisfranc Well-Known Member

    What particular concerns did you have with the product (ie the force platform and software), as opposed to the company in general?

    A few other podiatrists that I know of who have it have been quite satisfied with its performance (though none of them that I know of use it for TOG orthoses).

  16. CraigT

    CraigT Well-Known Member

    Sorry... I was referring to their orthoses.
    I had no problem with the pressure scanner- I felt as a unit the price was reasonable and may have added something to a clinical examination.
    As for their method of constructing on orthosis from the scan... well thats another thing. I am sure there are many on this site that echo my sentiments. ;)
  17. LCBL

    LCBL Active Member

    I dont own a pressure mapping product. Thats a disclaimer.

    I do believe that the pressure mapping technology in 'certain' systems is proprietary technology developed by RS-Scan in Belgium.

    So, I would use the original companies product as it's designed as a pressure mapping tool and not as the 'front end' of an 'magic custom orthotic maker'.

    The feedback I get on their product is excellent. www.rsscan.com

    Again, I am not a customer of this company and have no connection with them at all but am familiar with their products. I am a potential customer though.
  18. PodSq

    PodSq Welcome New Poster

    I have the TOG system and it makes pretty pictures, these are sometimes useful to observe weight transfer throught the foot dynamically. I have tried their devices, as I was interested to see how they made 2D images into 3D devices. My experience with the devices was not great. Given the opporunity to purchase again, I would use the RS-Scan system. It is the same system, a bit cheaper and no hype to produce devices.
    I hope this is helpful
  19. Donna

    Donna Active Member

    The Boss Physio showed me a letter this morning that she received last week from another physio who practices not too far away. The letter was accompanied by a multitude of brochures and pricing lists etc marketing this physio practice and their TOG Orthotics. The letter was basically requesting referrals from other physios for TOG Orthotics, and he was cheeky enough to address the letter to the practice by dropping "Podiatry" from "Paddington Physiotherapy and Podiatry". :rolleyes:

    He continues for some time after this about the benefits of TOG Gaitscan, the letter absolutely reeks of snake oil... :(

    I just can't believe that an Allied Health Professional can speak so negatively of another Allied Health Profession. What happened to the multi-disciplinary approach that we were taught at uni? :eek:
  20. LCBL

    LCBL Active Member


    Money talks, and it dont care who it offends ;)

    I have had 6 ex-TOG 'patients' in this week alone and one in tomorrow. I <3 TOG. So, in my case, money walks.

    Keep fighting the fight.
  21. Donna

    Donna Active Member

    Thanks for that... you are very right... I just feel sorry for the patients who are being talked into buying these devices... :( Also I wonder how much time this guy actually spent "looking into suitable podiatrists to refer patients onto", considering he is located in Brisbane city where there is a high saturation of pods in a small radius. I can easily think of several Pod colleagues in the city and surrounds who are very successful in producing effective functional orthoses :confused:
  22. Admin2

    Admin2 Administrator Staff Member

  23. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Following on from the announcement by Langer that they have sold their orthotic buisness, the new owners of TOG have announced that they purchased it:

    Press Release:
  24. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    I met the TOG rep @ PFOLA in 2007. He afforded me a nifty pair of their inserts one week after scanning me.

    He did not examine me or ask any questions regarding my history/pathology and just scanned me right off. Considering my flexible cavus foot their high medial arch device with no posting/skiving, shallow heel cup and lack of attention to the forefoot rendered the device useless and uncomfortable after 30 mins with dramatic medial arch irritation. Also their top cover was separating from the heel cup after that wear time. Craftsmanship....

    I understand that they purchased Foot Levelers but I haven't confirmed that.

    Nice try TOG. I now use them to test out my heat guns.
  25. joejared

    joejared Active Member

    Re: TOG Gaitscan: They just don't stop.....

    Rather than comment, I for one simply propose a question:

    How in the .... does one translate pressure into altitude when using a pressure based system in a non-contact region? If I can't get a quantifiable answer other than the word algorithm then why would I want to hear anyone speak about it? Okay, I lied, that was 2 questions.
  26. Seamus McNally

    Seamus McNally Active Member

    Interesting following the TOG thread.I have one for 5 years. I carry out my own biomechanical assessment and then 'Gaitscan'. I know some who use the Gaitscan with limited knowledge of biomechanics, and this bothers me ( Ok I dont lose sleep easily), because sometimes I know the scan result, I get, could not be right based on my assessment. For example, the degree of pronation. Sure enough when I repeat, the result comes up more like I expected. But I sometimes cannot help wondering how much it matters for the 'fabricators' (mm.. just realised that word is interesting). ANYWAYS! I have to say, sheepishly, that I get the most amazingly positive feedback. Living in rural west of Ireland I am fairly likely to bump into at least 70% of my clients at some stage, so I am careful about trying to get it right (apart from the fact I consider myself a person of integrity). Some of you have commented on easy to wear V greater correction. Easy to wear increases compliance of course, and maybe that is a factor.
    This is my first post although I am reg. for past year. I really enjoy following the threads and feel guilty for not throwing in my 'tupence worth' And sure you do deserve a drink, although its not something we do alot around here.
    "Seek not fame nor wealth but the endless joy of possibilities"
  27. joejared

    joejared Active Member

    Odds are, you'd be just a tad more correct if you used the term, "Prefabricators". That you can obtain good results using a pressure mapping system suggests that at least your side of the equation is solid or that you're conservative in your corrections. I've worked with pressure mapping systems before for one of my customers and saw were there was information that could be derived, such as weight distribution and evidence of supination or pronation, but never enough information to provide something that would warrant use in making a truly custom orthotic. Profile information is probably weaker than a page scanner, because at least a page scanner references dpi, rather than 10ths of an inch or millimeters. It would be really interesting to see a pressure pad, however, that had enough room to walk on, either as a long flat pad or as a treadmill. It's probably too costly a venture, but there could be a real use there.
  28. Seamus McNally

    Seamus McNally Active Member

    yes, I am selective in prescribing, and yes no doubt 'lab. discretion' is conservative. I have thought about the theory of a longer mat, no doubt would be only viable for research facilities. besides it would probably test the sense of humour of my clients if I asked them to carry on through the door, into the street, from my little sugery
  29. CEM

    CEM Active Member

    not been in here for a while but i see the same story popong up again and again

    i only have one question as opposed to joejareds' two

    How exactly can you create an acurate 3 dimensional device froma 2 dimensional scan?
  30. joejared

    joejared Active Member

    That question is a simple mathematical equation. The intersection of a 3 dimensional line and a plane. Yes, it is that simple, once one knows the apex height of the camera and location and angle of the bar laser relative to the camera.
  31. Joe, they're talking about pressure "scans", not shape scanning.
  32. CEM

    CEM Active Member

    please tell me you are winding me up, there was no camera or laser involved when the last snake oil salesman tried to flog me this system and a pair of inserts from it
  33. CEM

    CEM Active Member


    thank christ someone understood what i said...sorry missed you post before i posted the above

    and i thought i was going mad:dizzy:
  34. joejared

    joejared Active Member

    On that point, one could only approximate altitude, but it really is only an estimate. There are some fundamental laws, such as snells law as well as how light dissapates with distance (the square root of the relative distance difference), but it is not reliable, even if the foot is completely isolated from environmental ambient lighting due to the variances of diffuse reflective properties of the foot. One of the first projects I was assigned more than a decade ago involved unstructured ambient light sources but in the end, felt like smoke and mirrors.
  35. Do you understand how foot pressure measurement systems work? Your post above is completely irrelevant when discussing foot pressure measurement scanning. Please just start a thread on shape scanning, you'll feel much more at home then.
  36. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member


    I am responding to your interest in optical scanners here because I feel that it is more appropriate than the myriad threads that you have posted to recently where the subject is really off-topic.

    As Simon points out there are already many high quality scanners available in the market and the cost has dropped due to lack of interest. I own an optical system personally and it does a fair job although it too has inherent problems, mainly lighting and the inability to capture the calcaneus fully without sacrificing an accurate scan of the primary arch due to angle.

    The lab software is among the very best that I have ever experienced as well, I can see a place for such scanners but in my experience they are not for every foot and lab. Also the software on the manufacturing end is the key. Capturing the foot somewhat accurately is not the main problem as I see it, it is the lab support and software interface that usually fails to produce an accurate orthosis. Due to this there is typically a limitation of labs supporting the devices and typically becomes a proprietary solution as their lab is the only option available.

    I wish anyone good luck trying to get a provider to switch from a lab that they have used successfully over the years and are familiar with to a new one.

    Lastly, there is a relatively small market for such a device in the U.S. I know the owner of the company who produced the scanner that I own personally and was privileged to his grief and frustration trying to gain interest among the podiatric community for these machines. Abroad this system is used with more acceptance although it is still a relatively small niche market. The last that I had heard they were using the system here to produce a library of foot shapes for prefabs.

    I would recommend spending some time learning the market before you spend all of your time trying to create the next new mousetrap.

    Food for thought.

  37. Yeah, unfortunately we have someone here with a scatter gun approach to posting. I'm sure he has something worthwhile to say on the subject of 3D foot / cast scanning. And he appears to be approaching the market in a disruptive manner, which can only be good for the consumer, but he really needs to organise his thoughts and start a thread on the topic, introducing himself and his product and asking the questions he says he wants the answers to, rather than assuming that no-one knows anything about this technology and that he is the first to market. Perhaps then we can all begin to have some constructive dialogue, which may be mutually beneficial to all involved.

    Just a random thought. Wouldn't that be better than alienating yourself from potential customers by posting into threads that you clearly don't grasp the concepts of? Or trying to blow gas up Prof. Kirby's ass? Just guessing...
  38. joejared

    joejared Active Member

    Point taken. I wont allow myself to be baited into off topic responses, as it's no win either way.
  39. Joe, I suspect you are intentionally missing David's point. I think he means that you have been using a scatter gun approach and submitting posts that are irrelevant to the existing thread topics. You take the biscuit for ignorance and arrogance. You have not needed any bait to go off topic, you've consistently done that all by yourself.
  40. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    I don't quite understand your comments Joe. No offense but many of your posts for the last few days are decidedly off-topic and as Simon pointed out revolve around a singular topic not related to many of the threads.

    As usual Simon has summed things up succinctly:
    Joe I am not trying to be argumentative, nor am I trying to criticize you. I am merely expressing an opinion of the market for these devices based on personal experience and knowledge and your recent posts.:morning:

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