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Discussion in 'Podiatry Arena Help, Suggestions and Comments' started by Robertisaacs, Jan 16, 2012.

  1. Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    Following the latest pointless and abortive thread on barefoot running, I have a question.

    Is this forum for foot care professionals? Or merely people with an interest in foot health?

    If its the Former then do we really have to put up with all these gullible 2@s who read "born to run" and think it's the equivilent of 3 -7 years of full time academic qualification? Is there a partcular reason these people are allowed membership here?

    I'm not in favour of censorship as a rule, but its like playing poker with someone who keeps shouting "SNAP!!!". Viz, annoying.

    Is there a reason for this?
  2. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Indeed. I`ve already stated that I don`t think they should be allowed to post. If they want to follow debates between professionals with qualifications in foot health care then that`s fine. They can always observe as guests, or take up any specific issues regarding running shoes/orthoses, etc with their own foot health professional. It is insulting when they are allowed to continually criticise our profession (not to mention our intelligence) as a whole. Sadly, Pod Arena just aint what it says on the tin any more, " a forum for foot health professionals".

  3. For what ever it is worth - I have just sent a PM to the boss with an idea.

    Got to go :drinks
  4. Is it about hits?
  5. blinda

    blinda MVP

    What do you mean?
  6. http://content.websitegear.com/article/revenue_traffic.htm

    More people writing = more pages; more pages = more ads; more pages = more page views; more page views = more ad views = more revenue.


  7. Honestly, if Podiatry Arena was all about generating revenue for Craig Payne, he would have stopped doing this for all of us many years ago. We should stop worrying about if Craig is making money on Podiatry Arena. As far as I'm concerned, from my many private discussions with him, he barely makes enough from ads here to break even. In effect, then, considering all the time he puts into Podiatry Arena, he is probably actually losing money from keeping this site going.

    You are doing a great job here, Craig, and I, for one, greatly appreciate all the time you put into it and wish you could make more money keeping this wonderful site available for all of us. However, I do think we need to get rid of the non-medical professionals and non-researchers from this site since they are definitely changing the tone of discussions here to a point of where it weakens the information and the content on this great academic podiatric website.

    Here's to you Craig!:drinks
  8. I don't think I ever said it was all about generating revenue for Craig Payne.
  9. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

  10. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    Just quick response before heading out for a run in my NB Minimus shoes. It actually costs me money. Because of the traffic and size of database, we just had to move to a new dedicated server that costs $500/month .. the adverts do not come close to covering that.

    Respond more later...
  11. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    Simon I meant alarmed as in that was definitely a veiled threat, whether or not it had any validity. We all know that it did not.

    This is often what happens when zealots cannot further their position legitimately; threats, name calling etc. In this case he claims to be an attorney and clearly sought to intimidate you, us. Unacceptable.
  12. But the ads do go some way to covering the running costs, which was my point. Is it true that increased traffic brings in increased revenue? Is it fair to say that the "barefoot threads" have increased the traffic to the site? Is it also true to say that you would rather not be out of pocket for the running of Podiatry Arena, hence the more traffic that visits here the better as far as you are concerned? I'm not saying that you are sitting in a swimming pool lighting cigars with £50 notes, Craig, but the increased number of hits the barefoot threads must have generated, must also have added to the revenue generated.


    Like I asked: is it about hits?

    Given that you state that it costs you money to run Podiatry Arena, it would seem logical to attempt to increase the revenue generated. Given that revenue of websites like podiatry arena are usually linked to the hit count I don't think it is unreasonable to ask if the reason why non-professionals have been allowed to post upon a "forum for discussion by podiatrists and other foot health professionals about all aspects of podiatry" is because of the increased number of hits and viz. the increased revenue this might generate.

    Out of interest, if I wanted to buy Podiatry Arena, how much would it cost me? What is it's current value?

    According to this website http://sitevaluecheck.com/ it comes in at a cool $201,252. Don't get too excited Craig, others value it at about 20K.
  13. Boots n all

    Boots n all Well-Known Member

    Simon, the adverts only earn money when people click on them.

    As l sit here, there arent too many if any adverts a bare foot runners are about to click on.

    KK's book
    Craig's bootcamp
    Online degrees
    My Orthopeadic footwear

    l say good luck to CP, if it doesnt at least break even it may disappear and l dont think anyone wants to see this wonderful resource go...we need it
  14. Not true. Why do people seem to be trying to pretend that money doesn't change hands because we write on here?

    This isn't Simon versus Craig night. Is this cold, hard truths night? People are annoyed at non-podiatrists/ non-health care professionals writing on Podiatry Arena- read the thread. People don't understand why Craig has allowed them to write here- read the thread. I'm trying to explain to these people that Podiatry Arena doesn't come for free and that actually it's just like any other business; it comes with profit and loss accounts- read the thread. Revenue is generated by people viewing and writing on this site- true or false? Even if your premise were true (which it is not) then more traffic = greater potential for hits = greater potential for revenue.

    So cool your Boots, David.

    BTW log on as a guest and see what ads you get.

    It's just business.

    Of course, this may have nothing to do with the reason why Craig has allowed these people to write here. I was merely speculating based on the original post. Let's listen to Craig's answer to the original question posed by Robert...
  15. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    Firstly, dealing with the advert issues. They don't come close to covering the $ I spend to keep the site going (esp since changing from a shared hosting to a dedicated server).

    Yes, I spend a lot of time doing things in the background to increase traffic to the site.

    I earn $'s (usually a few cents!) from each click on the Google adverts, so theoretically, if I can double the traffic, then I can double that advertising income.

    For the Amazon adverts, I earn a small commission for each product sold; so people have to click on the advert and buy a product - this amounts to a few $ each month.

    I can and occasionally do sell an advert that you see down the side and the payment for that is based on the impressions (or number of times its shown). Currently there is only one of those (and that is only showing in the UK!). This is one area I really should get off my backside and try and sell some more.

    Other "adverts" you see are usually given gratis in return for favors people have done for me or helped me out with things.

    When it comes to clicks on adverts, I just checked the stats and for the last 7 days, the number of click on advertisements was 0.04% of the total number of times they were displayed ... so you can see why I laughing all the way to the bank!

    I am working on some things to try and change this and you will here about it soon. (Basically its working with a group of sites to sell advertising packages, that will have substantial reach across "podiatry" on the web).
  16. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    Secondly, the issue raised by Robert.

    Yes it is getting annoying. More and more non-health professionals with agendas are coming here with closed minds and trying promote their agenda and coming across as zealots. More often than not, its going over old ground we have covered many times before.

    As to getting rid of them; I have banned a few and deleted their posts; a few have been banned recently, but I kept their posts - usually the idiotic and threatening emails I get from them just serves to confirm that I did the right thing.

    Its a fine line. If they are a "patient" wanting advice, then they are gone. If they are what has been happening a lot lately, a runner (particularly with a barefoot agenda) then if I automatically ban them, then we can get accused exactly of what they are doing (ie being close minded zealots with agendas).

    I guess it all depends if they add anything of value to the discussion. Of late the contribution of value have been minimal or borderline ... so a fine line.

    All I am really interested in is posts that add value to the topic under discussion. Will have to give it some thought .....
  17. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    On a lighter note, I think Robert has a lot to answer for. Graduates of his Personal Improvement Starter Scheme are also guilty of this as well - a single minded zealotry and not prepared to engage in dialogue or take on board critiques etc. We all know who I mean
  18. I don't think you need to be so defensive, Craig. Nor to delete my previous post saying as much . As I said in my post which was between posts 17 and 18 in this thread before it was deleted: people were more interested in hearing your rationale for allowing non-professionals to post here than your justification of the advertising.
  19. Boots n all

    Boots n all Well-Known Member

    How would you screen them V us?

    Whatever course of action you take to do so, there will be another cost/additional work load.
  20. AlexDP

    AlexDP Member

    It wasn't a veiled threat. I also don't think you know what a zealot is. Furthermore, check who does the name calling.
  21. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    Not sure I want to screen "them v us" as that is what they do! I posted this comment a couple of days ago in the barefoot thread:
    To ban "them" is to frame discussions/debate as an us vs them and it should be about engaging in dialogue. Its when people are on a single bloody minded crusade with an agenda rather than engage in that dialogue does things go south. More often than not things start of well until they show their true colors.

    For example a while back we had some contributions from a Pose running coach that you and I may think is misguided, but it still added value and we learnt more about Pose running (and about single minded zealots who believe all runners all run the way that they were preaching!).

    I know we discussed this a year ago and I never really followed through with it, but I wanted people to consider that the Post Reply button really means Add Value to this Disucssion. That should be the criteria. Maybe I just need to be stricter in deleting more posts that do not add value to the topic under discussion ... regardless who posts it.
  22. Hate the game, not the playa ;).

    At least those people can be expected to have a level of knowledge. Many don't of course, but they should!

    Perhaps we should have people sit at test before we give posting rights.

    1. Is personal experience the same as "evidence"?
    2. Do you believe cavemen never suffered injuries?
    3. Do birds break the laws of physics?
    4. Do all podiatrists besides you still use canonical Root and nothing else?
  23. 5 Have you found the one answer to everyones problems
  24. Ian Harvey

    Ian Harvey Active Member

    Whether Craig makes a fortune via the arena or not is IMHO irrelevant. He provides a valuable service to our community which must be payed for in some way. He is obviously a podiatry enthusiast and eager to advance biomechanics and encourage debate. If he is lucky enought to make some cash, then good luck to him. I for one am happy with his explanation that he does not make much money, but he deserves to earn more.

    If Craig is having difficulties in providing funds, then perhaps it is a lesser evil to have some of the less scientific contributors. I can almost hear some of you gnashing your teeth at this thought, but what if the arena became unaffordable?

    Because Craig is doing this service, we all benefit. Like most of us I use the arena as a valuable thought provoking resource and would miss it if it was lost. However, (like most people) I am not likely to volunteer to run such a scheme myself, and I suspect that there is a shortage of people like Craig who are not only willing, but eminently qualified for the position.

    I don't think that most of the earlier comments are personal attacks against Craig, so I am sure I don't need to defend him too much. I just feel that it is much more important to have this resource than to be too concerned about how the organiser funds it.

    Keep up the excellent work Craig.

    Regards to all,
  25. timharmey

    timharmey Active Member

    If people are concerned about costs /profits maybe it would not be a bad idea to publish accounts at least it would all be transparent
  26. blinda

    blinda MVP

    I don`t think anyone is attacking anyone, or concerned about any profit that may or may not be generated. I read Simons` post as purely highlighting the practicalities of running a website, not accusatory.

    We all agree that Craig, and all the admin team, do a jolly good job, I`m sure. My only gripe is the tolerance of the increasing amount of non-medical professionals who blatantly disregard forum rules. But, I can appreciate the `fine line` that the big cheese refers to which has to be considered in determining whether a poster is adding value to a thread.

    Keep up the good work, Craig :drinks
  27. Why not levy a yearly administration charge of say £5 (or equivalent) for membership/subscription which would allow you to post - but free access for viewing? Surely that would inhibit not only some of the lay contributors but also the commercial advertisers that hijack the forum from time-to-time. I would be quite happy to subscribe.

    Best wishes
  28. lucycool

    lucycool Active Member

    I like the idea of paying a minimal subscription but what happens if "joe bloggs" then pays it too and then how can their posts be deleted without some sort of comeback by the subscriber? If someone is adamant in posting but still does even after getting a lot of negative feedback, then i doubt £5 would stop them.

    But I love this place - the ads dont offend me and I agree with blinda that Simon is only explaining the normal workings of a website - very interesting too!

    Cheers you lovely pod people!!

  29. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    I disagree. My post was not aimed specifically at you Alex but rather at the fanatical, extremist position from non foot professionals regarding the barefoot trend we are encountering on this professional board. Trust me, I know the meaning of the word zealot and usage and it fits in many cases.
  30. Peter

    Peter Well-Known Member

    How about doing what the football sites do and have a £h!t bin, a forum where admin can dump all the barefoot running theorists and quacks into one meaningless forum, where those with a real interest in lower limb pathology rehabilitation can steer safely away from?
  31. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    Its never been about the money. I only raised that as I have been accused in other threads of making lot of money from this site. Its a hobby.
    Alex, this is not aimed at you. You ARE willing to engage in dialogue rather than take a "fanatical, extremist position"
  32. If someone is determined enough they will circumvent the rules or guidelines irrespective of the feedback - in which case Craig can use his normal discretion. A nominal subscription would not inhibit genuine professionals using the forum, but it would inhibit trolls and lay posters.

    What is important is that Craig doesn't start losing money running PA - what he does currently leaves us indebted to him big time - I think it incumbent of us as users of the site to fund its day-today running costs where there is a shortfall from advertising revenues.

    What say you?
  33. Ian Harvey

    Ian Harvey Active Member

    On balance, I agree that a small charge is a good idea. Craig shouldn't have to worry about financing this thing which benefits all of us.

    However, some of the contentious debates started by "trolls and lay posters" can be quite informative. I think there is sometimes value in myth busting by the more scientific forum members. If these subjects were not raised then they can't be debunked. Otherwise some of the less scientific but well intentioned forum members might not have cause to question some of these myths. The same applies to lay persons who merely view the forums.

  34. Lizzy1so

    Lizzy1so Active Member

    Mark, I totally agree, asking people to put their money where their mouth is will weed out a lot of irrelevant opinions and posts, many of us already subscribe to magazines, on-line journals and professional bodies, so why not? I don't understand this snobbishness about making a few quid, good on you admin, I hope you make a mint.
  35. Boots n all

    Boots n all Well-Known Member

    l have been participating on a number of forums over the last 10 years, introducing a mandatory fee will see most not come back, sad l know but thats what l have seen, most will not pay.

    However, l feel zealots will pay, as they are just that desperate to have their opinion heard.
  36. Craig puts in a lot of time here, but so do many others. There are people behind the scenes such as Mike Weber, Ian G, Donna, Elaine, Deco, HJ-ray, and Deco that all work to welcome new members and rid the site of the incessant spam.

    I know that for myself, and probably also for the many other posters such as my mates Simon Spooner and Eric Fuller, Podiatry Arena represents a way for us to learn and share our knowledge in a subject we have greatly enjoyed for the past few decades. For me, even though I put a lot of hours into Podiatry Arena (which my wife teases me about every week), the occasional "thanks" from others goes a long way to making it all worthwhile with my busy schedule. I'm sure that for Craig, he derives some "payment" from us giving him thanks either publicly or privately for all the hard work he puts into Podiatry Arena.

    I am not in favor of a surcharge for Podiatry Arena since I think it would eliminate many potentially valuable posters and remove that aura of free exchange of information and that makes the internet such a valuable commodity. However, I do have some ideas on how to help defer the costs for running the Podiatry Arena website for Craig. I, for one, don't want to see Podiatry Arena become such a financial burden for Craig and his family that he can't afford to keep improving it for our collective education and entertainment.

    One idea to help fund the site is to make up high quality t-shirts that could be sold on Podiatry Arena for a profit. I have been involved in designing and producing t-shirts on a few occasions and this can generate quite a bit of money if the t-shirts are high enough quality. Even though I don't have the time now to do the design the t-shirt logos myself, I would think that a t-shirt design contest with some type of award followed by production of these t-shirts on a large scale could easily net Podiatry Arena a few thousand dollars. Of course, the mailing of these t-shirts to different countries may create some additional work but may be something to think about. If the design was cool enough, other items such as coffee mugs & beer glasses with logos, could be done for a profit.

    A second idea would be to have donors listed on the Podiatry Arena website home page in "Gold", "Silver", "Platinum" and "Bronze" categories as volunteer donors (either individuals or companies) with their different categories reflecting the amount of money they contribute each year to help maintain the website. This type of "tiered contribution recognition system" is done with great success at many large podiatry seminars here in the US.

    Third idea might be to have Craig stand on the side of a freeway exit holding a cardboard sign with the following message scrawled on it:

    Will Do Podiatry Website for Food

    Sorry, Craig, the third idea was just a joke...the first two ideas may work.:drinks
  37. Boots n all

    Boots n all Well-Known Member

    Great ideas KK, but we need to be sure that a sponsor doesn't reflect on the chat or that it may put CP in an awkward position if "Sketches" sponsor and we chat about their BS toning shoes.

    Maybe members could have different levels of sponsorship or just "Buy admin a beer" is the best, it thirsty work after all you know:drinks

    Actually CP, if a member buys you a beer it might be worth reflecting that on their postings under number of "Posts" or the likes

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