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Barefoot V Runners

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by Boots n all, Sep 6, 2012.

  1. Boots n all

    Boots n all Well-Known Member

  2. barefootbear

    barefootbear Member

    Footfall-patterns in running are a result of what type of shoes you are wearing. Elevated heels and soft soles lead to heel-striking, lower cadence and prolonged stance time. As a shoe- fitter I see this every day. Based on the fact that man has been running barefoot or in minimal shoes for "millions of years" , heel-striking at speeds above 4 mph should be referred to as common. Calling it natural is nonsense !
  3. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Care to explain why so many elite runners can run so fast heel striking? Care to explain why so many minimalist/barefoot runners heel strike?
  4. Really??? Do we need to do this again?:bang:
  5. I am also growing so tired of all the idiotic claims made by these barefoot/minimalist disciples as to how "natural running" is better than running in traditional running shoes. Since when does being natural also equate to being better? Our ancestors who lived more "naturally" than those of us today also were lucky to live past the age of 40 succumbing to "natural diseases" such as infections, abscesses, appendicitis, pneumonia, viral infections and being killed by animals. If this scenario of our "natural" ancestors having only half our expected lifespan is true, then being "natural" should rather be thought to be harmful to your health and should be avoided at all costs! Keep giving me my "unnatural" luxuries such as shoes, antibiotics, automobiles, airplanes, cell phones, computers, etc....I will gladly leave the "natural" things to those who want themselves and their loved ones to die early and live with more pain and less convenience.

    The Fallacy of "Natural"
  6. barefootbear

    barefootbear Member

    I will reply with a question; Could you please elaborate on the benefits of:

    1. Heel-striking.
    2. Prolonged ground-contact.
    3. Lowered cadence.
  7. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    You are avoiding answering the question and falling into the fallacy of presupposition. Please answer the question:
    There can't be anything wrong with
    as so many elite runners can run really fast with this approach (see the photo linked to in post #2 in this thread)
  8. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    ....I wonder how many of them are also taking their arsenic pills? ..... arsenic must be good for us as it is natural too!
  9. Heel striking helps you run a 2:09 marathon...just like Meb Keflezighi.
  10. barefootbear

    barefootbear Member

    5, 9, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 23. The heel-strikers seem to gather at the back of the pack..
  11. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    They are still elite runners; the best of the best, running very fast in minimalist shoes.

    And even if they were not "elite", can you explain why they are even heel striking in minimalist shoes and running as fast as what they are?

    Can you answer the above questions?
  12. barefootbear

    barefootbear Member

    Sorry, I can't. I'm busy wondering how fast they could have run with a more efficient foot-strike.
  13. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    How do you know that? Since when is a forefoot strike more efficient? What evidence do you have that it is?
  14. Just for you, Bare Foot Bear...I think you could be a charter member of this club...

  15. CraigT

    CraigT Well-Known Member

    I think admin likes to remind us occasionally how many ignorant people there are out there...
  16. He can't be ignorant....he is a "shoe fitter"....and a runner.....therefore he must be an expert...:rolleyes:;):butcher:
  17. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    I don't think they are ignorant, but there is a certain amount of gullibility that they actually fall for the nonsensical rhetoric and propaganda. I go where the evidence takes me, not where the nonsensical rhetoric and propaganda takes the gullible.
  18. barefootbear

    barefootbear Member

    Sorry guys, for being so ignorant and provoking. I' ll put on a pair of stability-shoes to take "care" of the overpronation that appears when heel-striking in front of my GCM at 160 cadence (at this point I will also be trying to ignore the pain caused by the shear-forces grinding away at what is left my medial meniscii) Then I'll push off to regain my speed, while trying to ignore the message from my quads: hey, you're late. We should have recoiled off the ground milliseconds ago !
  19. Sicknote

    Sicknote Active Member

    Which was my same argument.

  20. Sicknote

    Sicknote Active Member

    There probably stretching the Achilles tendons more which increases more Joules (J) of elastic energy?.
  21. I think many of them have had a positive personal experiences from running in minimalist shoes or running barefoot but then make the fatal assumption that what worked for them so well will also work for everyone equally as well. They have little knowledge of the existing literature on running biomechanics, know little of the history of shoes in competetive running events over the past century, are generally not experienced competitive runners, have no clinical experience in treating injured runners and make remarkable leaps of faith based solely on their own anecdotal positive personal experiences. The good news is that they will soon all fade away as the evidence continues to prove them wrong and they find some other fanatical cause to champion on the internet.
  22. kitos

    kitos Active Member

    May I pose a question please?

    When man was first created was there tramac or concrete roads?
    Were their concrete pavements?
    Was there broken glass on the road/pavements?
    Were there cars or lorries or cyclists dropping litter both hard and soft?
    Were there shoes?
    Were there trainers?


    As Homo Sapiens (Thinking man) evolved he/she CREATED items to help them do their jobs to make them more successful/faster/safer.

    Why re-invent a wheel when it isn't broken and porbably cause physical problems in doing so?

    I don't get the thinking or the action behind it all - maybe I'll just stay a homo sapien and let others return to neanderthal state.

  23. kitos

    kitos Active Member

    Whoops I missed out dog poo and vomit on the streets too :)
  24. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

  25. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    That's a very good reason to prescribe maximalist rigid shoe with 12mm of drop and 40mm of stack. Thanks for this elaborate argumentation :dizzy:
  26. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    Are you speaking about me?

    I think many of your have had a positive personal experiences from running in maximalist shoes but then make the fatal assumption that what worked for you so well will also work for everyone equally as well. The good news is that you will soon all fade away as the evidence continues to prove you wrong and you will find some other fanatical cause to champion on the internet... like promotion of orthotics.
  27. Blaise:

    Since you don't seem to want to accept any of the evidence for the clinical efficacy of foot orthoses, then it really isn't worth my time to have any discussion with you on this matter. In fact, I am getting somewhat bored and tired of your one-sided arguments that don't objectively view the data and seem to only be directed toward promoting "minimalist shoes" (whatever they really are).

    Good luck with your money-making lectures where you "prove" that minimal shoes are always better for running than the "big-bulky shoes" you like to talk about. As for me, I am through discussing these things with you since life is too short for me to spend my time trying to move a stationary object with roots firmly planted in the ground.

    I'm sure that you will find plenty of people to pay you to listen to you speak. However, I doubt that many with a good knowledge of foot and lower extremity biomechanics would ever waste their money on such a foolish expenditure.
  28. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    Dear Kevin,
    The problem is that you were never able to convince me that we need big bulky shoes... by the evidence AND also by clinical experience.

    The minimalist trend you call a fad is growing so fast and have so much scientific supporters that if you want to meet people thinking is not a good thing you need to go on Podiatry Arena.

    And before you critics my course, come in to know what is it... you make a judgment and you have no idea the content... like when every body critics the article I was co-author just by reading the abstract... Are you often do that? Maybe it's the reason why you do so much statement that have no sense...

    Juste for you... tell me if you see something on that stats... like a tendency :

    RetailTRAK™ June 2012 - Running Specialty Retail Sales

    Dollar Sales
    All Footwear: +11%
    All Road Running Shoes: +15% ($50M)
    Motion Control: +1%
    Stability: +12%
    Neutral/Cushion: +21%
    Trail Running Shoes: +8%
    Minimalist shoes: +41% ($31M)

    Minimalist shoes outpaced traditional models at retail for yet again. All minimalist running shoes pulled in $6M, up 41% from June 2011. So far this year, minimalist accounted for $31M in dollar sales.
  29. efuller

    efuller MVP

    Yep, the market is always right ;)

    Check out the thread in the break room on the rejection of science.

  30. Boots n all

    Boots n all Well-Known Member

    Blaise those figures are most likely based on a new product entering the market and the associated marketing dollars spent increasing year on year and people do like to try new things on the market.

    The same figures can most likely be found during the up take of the rocker sole fade, maybe even greater figures of increase and we know the results of that, a real win for the legal companies.

    Remember the "powerband" fade, that was a ripper too, until Fair trading (if l remember right) ordered a full refund for all suckers, sorry purchasers.

    Prior to that it l am sure it had a huge increase in sales after a TV show promoted it, but the product didnt work.

    Lets see those figures again in 12 months time and see if they have maintained that growth, l doubt it.
  31. kitos

    kitos Active Member

    Gosh I'll bet Asics are absolutely quaking in their non barefoot shoes!

    While I think of it I didn't see one person running barefoot (like Zola Budd) or wearing minimalist shoes in the Olympics or ParaOlympics.

    Did you?

    Guess they must just be the un inititiated like their coaches and their sports scientists and their physios.

    Et al.

  32. Boots n all

    Boots n all Well-Known Member

    Actually looking at these figures, l am glad l am not involved, l couldnt take the pay cut:wacko:
    "..All Road Running Shoes: +15% ($50M)..
    , minimalist accounted for $31M in dollar sales"
  33. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    There is just podiatrist to tell that.
    We cannot compared the rocker fad to the minimalist trend
    It's not just a TV show or a book!... It's a scientific recommendation tendency!!!
    I hear 2 years ago that it was just a fad
    The reality of biggest companies have still change for ALL their shoe!!! (less weight, more flex, less drop, less motion control model, ... ... just the price increase ;)
    BBS was a fad... a long one but a fad
  34. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    Nick, you need glasses

    100% of the runners running 800m to marathon was wearing minimalist shoes!
  35. kitos

    kitos Active Member

    That's very nice of you to suggest that. Actually I do wear glasses and these are new and my eyesight is very good thank you very much.

    Gosh. So they run on tracks (nice and bouncy compared to tarmac and concrete)!

    Enough now as you obviously have your opinions and I and obviously lots of others on here have their opinion. I work on the principle of having seen various runners who have wrecked themselves and caused fractures and other injuries wearing these shoes. I guess if Kevin and Craig agree - and they are far more experienced and knowing about MSK than I - I'll go with my own feelings and experiences and their own formidable research.

    Thank you and good night.

  36. Boots n all

    Boots n all Well-Known Member

    But thats what they said about the rocker sole product and thats why a lot of those companies have or are been sued, the science was bogus, just marketing hype that they said was science.

    Personally l dont have issue with any shoe, be it Rocker, minimalist or even high heels, as long as as it is fitted to the right person for the right application.

    In-fact, different heel pitch and function from shoe to shoe is a great thing in my book, pathology allowing.

    All l was saying, it was a bad move using marketing figures to back a scientific debate.

    Its not drop its heel pitch:deadhorse:
  37. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

    Gosh Biase.. this reminds me so much of the argument for toning shoes.. you know mate... the ones that had all the science that showed all ya needed for ripped abs and buns of steel was a toning shoe.. AND.. you could eat a donut whislst doing it! Man, just like barefoot and minimalist the public swallowed it hook line and sinker! it was a freakin goldmine. Then alas, Kim Kardashian decided to promote sketchers and quite rightly they got sued for that.. or maybe it was because the product was crap.. or maybe it was because they made claims.. just like VFF and adidas, that they could not support.. and now, sketchers is 30 mill poorer, VFF about to be a lot poorer, and adi too.. damn that Kardashian.
    30 mill does not impress me much Biase.. you know the company you attack all the time.. ASICS I think they are called.. they sell 55,000 pairss of shoes every day 365 days a year and they have been doing that on average for 16 years whilst showing double digit growth. Must be doing something the consumer likes I guess!
  38. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    if you don't know the difference between a minimalist and a maximalist shoes go argument on another blog. If you need help we can ask to kevin and his friend what type of shoes the runners was wearing at the olympic... more minimalist or more maximalist?
  39. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    Can you give me your recommendations ... "fitted to the right person for the right application" means nothing... please justify

    If you need help http://www.therunningclinic.ca/medias/pdf/5390-cdc-affiche-organigramme-.pdf
  40. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    Nice plog for Asics shoes... Are you in the business? Just to know if you are bias.

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