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Biomechanics of skiing

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by snowskier, Dec 29, 2010.

  1. snowskier

    snowskier Member

    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    Sorry I'm a fraud - not a podiatrist but a health professional from another area. However a keen skier.

    We were wondering if anyone here has an interest in ski biomechanics. In particular we are interested in feet and hips. It is common to ski in a countered stance - where the pelvis faces to the outside of the turn in relation to the direction the feet(and skis) are pointed.

    There is a discussion going here http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/99127/so-skiing-into-and-out-of-counter-sucks#post_1286416

    Any information on this greatly appreciated. We once had talks with David McPhail from Canada who worked in this area with a special boot to measure different aspects. We believe he no longer is involved.

    Sorry if we are posting this in a bad place. Any suggestions of a better location for info would be useful if we are.
  2. Admin2

    Admin2 Administrator Staff Member

    We have had a few threads on skiing topics before.
  3. snowskier

    snowskier Member

    I'm reading/have read a bunch of them...

    So far no go with the counter, angulation and pronation stuff... still reading though...

    Phil Carter are you there?
  4. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    I'm sure this article has been posted on one of the other threads, but here it is again for your interest.

    Ian G.

    Attached Files:

  5. efuller

    efuller MVP

    To be able to ski foot motion has to be indpendent of hip motion/position. Up to a point, in most people it is. There are some people who may have limited range of motion in one direction or another. For example, someone may have a hip range of motion where they can only get there knee to point straight ahead when there hip is maximally internally rotated. Also, there is tibial torsion. With a high amount of external torsion the foot will be abducted and the skiier will need a lot of hip internal range of motion to get the foot/ ski to point straight ahead.

    These range of motion problems can happen with extremes of intoeing as well as out toeing.

    Of course eversion of the foot or adduction of the leg are needed to get pressure on the inside edge of the ski.

  6. snowskier

    snowskier Member

    Yes read(quick scan) that one but did not find anything about counter...

    I did read the bit where it insisted that unweighting was needed to initiate a turn - not true. It can be used but is certainly not necessary.

    Then I checked the date - predates modern skis and technique. (Not that it changed that much for racers but modern skis allowed general public to carve at lower speeds - so different techniques available)
  7. snowskier

    snowskier Member

    Oh and 'body facing downhill' is no longer a default either

    Counter refers to hips/torso facing to the OUTSIDE of the turn. While counter-rotation refers to an old turning mechanism. (Still used occasionally but not regularly)

    When early counter is created in a longer turn the skiers hips will in fact face uphill for a short time. (This is assuming skier is not skiing very incomplete turns that finish 30-45 degrees to fall line)
  8. snowskier

    snowskier Member

  9. JackMcIntosh

    JackMcIntosh Welcome New Poster

    Hi, i hav to do a essay on biomechanics and how i could use biomechanis to improve my volleyball skills. Im having trouble with third class levers. How does that apply to volleyball? please help me!
  10. Jack:

    When I was your age, we had this large building called a library. When we were given such assignments, we would have to go to the library, try to find a book on the subject we were researching and sometimes spend hours trying to find the reference material for the assignment. Alternatively, we may have looked for the information in the Encyclopedia Brittanica or the World Book Encyclopedia, if our home was so fortunate to have spent the money to have this around for such research assignments.

    But you know what Jack, today we have this wonderful and amazing resource called the internet. I just spent 10 seconds on Google, typed in the words "third class levers, volleyball" and came up with this lecture that talks not only about "volleyball" but also talks about "third class levers", http://ncea-physical-education.wikispaces.com/file/view/2.2 Biomechanics - Force.ppt.

    I hope you realize how fortunate you are to be living in the computer and internet era where information is so readily accessible at your fingertips. Unfortunately, this thread is about skiing, not about volleyball. Therefore, I suggest you start doing some work on your own since you really have it so much easier than I ever did as a student, I really have a hard time feeling any sympathy for you.
  11. I "fink" that you and I might be at the end of the breed, Kevin. The ability to walk to a library and flick through a journal, or even to type into a search engine; the ability to read, etc... who needs these skills nowadays? Why wd u, wen u cn txt? Jeez. These are the X-factor generation, where fame and fortune are just a phone call away. Don't make me laugh. Don't get me started. Talentless 'oinks the lot of 'em.

    P.S. can you help me find some references for the essay I'm writing on mythical creatures observed while under the influence of endorphins. thx, or something like that. Saw a teenager in tartan bondage trousers yesterday, do you know what, he looked at me as if he was the original of the species, I gave him a look which told him he wasn't and he looked away. Not even a single finger or a **** off grandad, and certainly not a bag of evo-stick in sight. Kids, who'd have 'em? Rubbish. G.A.L. or something like that.
  12. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Is that what happens when you reach your forties?
  13. In 60 days time you'll know Bel, you are a Pisces after all. And Chinese year of the pig http://www.c-c-c.org/chineseculture/zodiac/pig.htm . Me? I'm Pisces and Dog (ironically)

    One step closer:

    I'm 'round the corner from anything that's real
    I'm across the road from hope
    I'm under a bridge in a rip tide
    That's taken everything I call my own

    One step closer to knowing
    One step closer to knowing

    I'm on an island at a busy intersection
    I can't go forward, I can't turn back
    Can't see the future
    It's getting away from me
    I just watch the tail lights glowing

    One step closer to knowing
    One step closer to knowing
    One step closer to knowing
    Knowing, knowing

    I'm hanging out to dry
    With my old clothes
    Finger still red with the prick of an old rose
    Well the heart that hurts
    Is a heart that beats
    Can you hear the drummer slowing?

    One step closer to knowing
    One step closer to knowing
    One step closer to knowing
    To knowing, to knowing, to knowing

    Y'all know who.

    Anyway, back to skiing...
  14. Just gave a lecture on "Modern Biomechanics and Engineering Terminology for the Foot Surgeon" to the second year students at the California School of Podiatric Medicine today in Oakland. There is a class of 48 students and, overall, they seem a smart t lot of young adults, who have a bright future ahead for them. I'm sure these students could find some references in a library and find references on Google.

    By the way, Simon, the lecture I gave today is one I wish I got in my second year of podiatry school. It would have made all the difference for me. Unfortunately, all I was getting in my second year of podiatry school was Root theory.:wacko:
  15. snowskier

    snowskier Member

    This is a much earlier discussion that is part of my reason for asking the original question.


    You will see that David McPhail was adamant about the need to allow the foot to pronate in the ski boot. (To establish ground contact to tension arches?)

    The thread I linked to in the first post has a bootfitter and Cped insisting that the foot needs to be in supination to weight the ball of the big toe. He is quite sure we should try to ski with the loaded leg supinated. So the foot can weight bear.

    This goes against what I understood.

    Counter (pelvis facing outside the turn) is AIUI a necessary part of this scenario.

    Sorry I seemed to post in the wrong area. It seems I should have asked a physio after all, as pelvic counter and its relationship to pronation or edging in skiing seems outside the range of the articles here, and I guess the knowledge of the podiatrists here.
  16. scotfoot

    scotfoot Active Member

    Hi Snowskier ,
    I know that you entered the forum looking for answers but I wonder if you could help me with a question .I am interested in the impact that improved intrinsic muscle strength has on performance in athletic sports and wondered how important the intrinsic muscles of the foot are in skiing . I recently developed a device that may be of interest to you .
    Kind Regards
  17. efuller

    efuller MVP

    This question needs some boundries. For example, where does the pronation start that is needed in the ski boot. Are you talking about in regular stance or in neutral position. In stance, in most feet, the medial forefoot is loaded.

    I would agree that it would be difficult to load the medial forefoot with the STJ supinated. (If it was supinated to the point that there was minimal load on the medial forefoot. [STJ not leg])

    Perhaps the forum is having problems with the question and not the information that you desire. I wonder if anyone went to the link to see the debate that was referenced? A short synopsis of the debate might get more response out of the forum. Or maybe not, after you just insulted an entire profession.

  18. Snowskier:

    If you asked a question that was well written and made sense, using currently accepted terminology, you would probably get plenty of good answers. I read over your posts and you don't seem to have asked a specific question. Did I miss something?
  19. snowskier

    snowskier Member

    efuller - I find it interesting that a 'professional' response to a question was to make fun of the person asking the question. If the question appeared to need more information then some clarification could have been asked for not suggestions I learn to use a library. If you come to me as a professional I will attempt to clarify what you are asking not suggest the medical section of the local university library. Professional responses may have elicited a different response.

    The summary of the first linked thread is:
    One person believes a skier is able only to use propulsion phase in a ski boot. So the skier is locked into a stance that is post heel off if compared to a normal walking gait. He believes this is necessary to allow pressure to be directed to the ball of the big toe. He believes having the foot post heel off allows the foot to supinate and so be locked to allow weight to transfer to the big toe. He also contends that this will allow external rotation of the stance leg to aid edging of the ski.

    I've had a ski boot that had heel lifts installed by a well meaning bootfitter and I really dislike the feeling of skiing standing on my toes! So I'm one of the 'other side'.

    Other side believes the skier needs to be able to balance - so want weight distributed between the heel and the ball of 1st and 5th metatarsals. They are following the David McPhail concept(from his birdcage experiments with Podborski) that the skier can access some gait mechanics while skiing. (the birdcage experiemnts seemed to show this IF the ski boot was not overramped and had sufficient space to allow foot function). Hence If the skier ensures to begin weighting the new outside(stance) leg when that leg was still leading and foot supinated the foot was forced into pronation by the turn forces and allowed better balancing.

    Part of the second scenario is that the boot must allow normal function of soleus/gastocnemius foot and ankle area.

    Question again.
    Anyone here able to enlighten me further as to the role of counter(pelvis facing to outside of turn) and its relationship to foot function -particularly pronation of stance foot, and/or ability to direct weight(COP actually) to inside edge of outside ski - (anywhere outside of inside edge is a failure) in skiing biomechanics?
  20. Iñaki

    Iñaki Active Member

    Hi! can anyone tell me which is the most common injury (related to the foot) in the skiing?? thank you so much!!

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