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Claims of Foot Orthosis Superiority

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by Kevin Kirby, Nov 3, 2008.

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  1. Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    We have, to this date, had three individuals that have visited Podiatry Arena and made claims that their foot orthoses are superior to all others. I am amazed by the similarities of these individuals to each other.

    1. They all make claims that their foot orthoses are the best available.

    2. They have no scientific evidence to support their claims.

    3. They all have financial interest in these orthoses and serve to gain financially from others using their orthoses.

    4. They only spend a short time discussing their ideas on Podiatry Arena until they seem to become annoyed at all of those who don't agree with everything they say and then suddenly become too busy to answer more questions.

    5. When they feel they need further support to counteract the arguments of the the "nonbelievers" of Podiatry Arena, they contact their friends and ask them to start posting positive comments regarding their orthoses on Podiatry Arena.

    I find it uncanny that all three of these individuals have done basically the same thing here on Podiatry Arena, all so that they can convince themselves that their orthoses are superior to all others.

    What say you?:confused:
     
  2. DaVinci

    DaVinci Well-Known Member

    The similarites between the different groups of discussion are really uncanny. The patterns are the same. Thats what make Podiatry Arena so unique in it educational value.
     
  3. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    In case any one is wondering what this is about, study these:

    1. One
    2. Two
    3. Three
     
  4. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
    I would add a fourth.
    I would add:

    6. They do not participate in other threads not related to their theory/product.
     
  5. William Fowler

    William Fowler Active Member

    I picked this up from another thread:

    Paynes 1st Law:
    "The amount of passion involved in supporting a theory and the amount of emotional attachment to a theory is inversely proportional to the evidence for that theory"

    That says it all for me.
     
  6. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    Kevin,

    You know they have no interest in proving their theories by putting them to the test or under scrutiny by the learned and accomplished, they are just playing the numbers game to find the minority who will follow their lead. They also have no interest in science or the truth because as William pointed out Craig's 1st law applies specifically to them. Their persistent dogmatic theme is:

    "I am right and all of you are wrong".:craig:

    As you know I have been through this ugly and tiring scenario myself with one of SS' salesman who is also a colleague (and one DPM that you dispatched rapidly never to be heard from again...the silicone guy). I quit responding to him in email and asked them (SS) to take me off their marketing list. Its pointless even discussing ideas with that closed minded tribe.

    They love chiropractors because many of them completely lack the skill and knowledge to provide orthoses and yet they do and all for a buck. I find it shameful, especially when one of my colleagues jumps on the sales team of one of these companies and parrots a gagging effluent of the owners same tired old rhetoric for a paycheck. I think they look for related websites to try and engage new converts, without any knowledge the depth of the regular contributors here?

    And Craig is right, they don't participate in anything not related to their ideas and products. If the focus isn't on them and there's no money or a sale involved, they're simply not interested. The second someone disagrees they vehemently defend their theories and then begin talking about how busy they are, the 'seminars' they have to fly to, their pending vacation and how they cannot reply timely...yaddah...

    Cup of megalomaniac narcissism anyone....:drinks?

    On a side note does anyone know if the CBAS insert is one and the same as SS'? If I'm not mistaken they have branded them to the retail pedorthic outlets.
     
  7. Thanks Craig for reminding me about Dr. Silicone. In rereading my postings to him, I think that #1 got off pretty lightly.

    Poor Dr. Spooner, though, he has had to resort to :pigs: Latin to fend off the evil spirits of anecdotal orthosis worship.;)
     
  8. For all these guys, here's your tune: "Stories"- Eat
    http://www.last.fm/music/Eat/_/Stories?autostart

    "Tell me more…. Tell me more stories about beautiful dangerous available women…. Promise me the money and the girl again…. Make me dream of bubble-gum….. Rub my chest with suntan lotion until I come up man size….. Sell me a god its love tie…. Make me into a handsome revolutionary in a 50’s suit singing songs and selling lots of records on the radio…. Play me piped music on the telephone until I like it…… Put me on hold forever……. But make me grow and make me wise increase my size…… Make me take the Readers Digest see if I’m ready to take that test…… Read me the news and see if I listen…… Look at me with Kitchener’s eyes and ask me to die for you and your kind….. Raise me on romance give me a pre-packed snack- give me shakatak shakatak…… Sew me up with a smile and fill me full of sh!t….. and if the body looks compromising you can stick a cartoon character on it on it!....... Told me I’d be smarter by feeding me Uranium, now my brains so big I’ve got stretch marks on my cranium….. Tell me more. Tell me more……"
     
  9. David:

    Having reread my comments now to Dr. Silicone, I obviously will need to decrease the dosing schedule on my mean pills. Did I say all those things to someone I have never met.....really.....??:eek::rolleyes:
     
  10. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    Kevin where I come from that sort of mean is the higher point of discourse.

    If I ever type anything as remotely inane in a professional sense as Dr. Silicone I would ask for a similar vigorous verbal beating.

    Face it no one with an agenda responds well to being caught so in flagrante dilecto if you will, with their absurd ideations exposed and systematically dismantled publicly.

    Of course that it what makes it so game and enjoyable. Who's the wicked one now Kevin.....;)
     
  11. Here is another one to add to the list.....#7:

    1. They all make claims that their foot orthoses are the best available.
    2. They have no scientific evidence to support their claims.
    3. They all have financial interest in these orthoses and serve to gain financially from others using their orthoses.
    4. They only spend a short time discussing their ideas on Podiatry Arena until they seem to become annoyed at all of those who don't agree with everything they say and then suddenly become too busy to answer more questions.
    5. When they feel they need further support to counteract the arguments of the the "nonbelievers" of Podiatry Arena, they contact their friends and ask them to start posting positive comments regarding their orthoses on Podiatry Arena.
    6. They do not participate in other threads not related to their theory/product
    7. They think that they are the first ever to come up with a foot orthosis design that looks a certain way but have no knowledge (or ignore the existing medical literature) of the wide diversity of foot orthoses offered currently and that have been produced over the past century by foot-health practitioners around the world.
     
  12. drsha

    drsha Banned

    Kevin Stated:
    1. They all make claims that their foot orthoses are the best available.
    2. They have no scientific evidence to support their claims.
    3. They all have financial interest in these orthoses and serve to gain financially from others using their orthoses.
    4. They only spend a short time discussing their ideas on Podiatry Arena until they seem to become annoyed at all of those who don't agree with everything they say and then suddenly become too busy to answer more questions.
    5. When they feel they need further support to counteract the arguments of the the "nonbelievers" of Podiatry Arena, they contact their friends and ask them to start posting positive comments regarding their orthoses on Podiatry Arena.
    6. They do not participate in other threads not related to their theory/product
    7. They think that they are the first ever to come up with a foot orthosis design that looks a certain way but have no knowledge (or ignore the existing medical literature) of the wide diversity of foot orthoses offered currently and that have been produced over the past century by foot-health practitioners around the world.

    With this posting, please remove #6 from your list in my case.

    Please add the following:
    8. They all were baited to the Arena and made to falsely feel welcome and a colleague by The Arena Members when there was a dark agenda in mind
    When The Administrator said, “Its allways good to have those whose work we discuss here!” as welcoming and fraternal and that couldn’t have been farer from the truth.
    9. They were all held to a higher standard of accountability than The real Arena members
    10. They were all prejudged to be inferior and incapable of sound thought.
    11. Their theories were examined very superficially and using assumption and assertion were dismissed as folly.
    12. They were all treated meanly and made fun of even though they each had some level of professional standing that deserved.
    13. They all were debated using a different set of rules promoting a defensive posture that eventual gave them common traits (please see 1-7 above).

    There is a dark side to The Arena which reduces its power and effectiveness and negatively impacts its future.

    “If being an egomaniac means I believe in what I do and in my art or music, then in that respect you can call me that... I believe in what I do, and I'll say it”.
    John Lennon

    “The megalomaniac differs from the narcissist by the fact that he wishes to be powerful rather than charming, and seeks to be feared rather than loved. To this type belong many lunatics and most of the great men of history”. Bertrand Russell
    Kevin: Subjectively, who does this fit better as a stereotype, you or I?
    hahahahaha

    Dennis Shavelson, DPM
     
  13. Got a number 8
    8. They appear to assume that critisms they make of other models (which are usually enthusiastic and widespread) are based on sound science whereas critism of their model is based on dogmatic predudice.

    Dr S

    I have a request which i make in the honest spirit of investigation. Read the threads on one of the other of Kevins 3. Brian Rothbarts work is a good example, the man who believes (and i think he truly does!) a 3.5 degree microwedge under the 1st met head can treat infertility, dental problems, PMS, IBS, Autism and CPS. Then, if you would, comment on how many kevins points and indeed your own, are accurate in HIS case. In your opinion has the community been unfair in its critism of HIS work?

    I am honestly interested. Also in the interests of further rejecting number 6 and moving yourself from the narsiccist bracket it would be great to have your thoughts on somebodies work besides your own.
    Actually i think this is where the arena is at its finest! It is beholden to no company nor individual. It cannot be bought, bribed or influenced. It is in a unique position to express the views of the community without bias or fear. It need not treat any as employer or benefactor. It is truly independant. Many a model has been considered, discussed and found to have merit. Others have not. This is as it should be.

    Being open minded means accepting arguments on merit NOT accepting all ideas which come around.


    Regards
    Robert
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2008
  14. Euan McGivern

    Euan McGivern Active Member

    Robert and Colleagues

    I couldn't agree more!

    As an undergraduate student I find Podiatry Arena to be a fantastic resource in critical thinking. Where else can you see the opinions of such a diverse group of practitioners.

    I believe that without robust criticism and scientific thinking our evidence base and therefore, IMO, our profession can not successfully move forward.

    This is a great forum for challenging ideas and perceptions in research and practice, it is surely not about achieving an unanimous consensus on every issue rather it empowers us to challenge what we are told, read, believe.

    Sincerely
    Euan
     
  15. "They do not participate in other threads not related to their theory/product"

    Just guessing, I think this thread might be related to your product.

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah........ Whatever:sinking:
     
  16. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    Euan - thanks for the comments.

    This is what its all about - agree or disagree, all the information is here for YOU to make your own mind up; thats what education is about. For eg regardless of your, mine, Simon's, Kevin's, Eric's, Robert's, Dennis's views are on, for example, Functional Foot Typing, the thread on it presents all the information on both sides of the equation for YOU to make your mind up. The dicussion in this thread is really about ONE of the tool that you use to make YOUR own mind up.
     
  17. Asher

    Asher Well-Known Member

    Dennis, I'm sorry Podiatry Arena has not worked for you. Maybe if you took a more humble approach, imagine that your way may not be the be all and end all, and be open to learning something, you might find this a more helpful resource.

    Rebecca
     
  18. drsha

    drsha Banned

    Dennis, I'm sorry Podiatry Arena has not worked for you. Maybe if you took a more humble approach, imagine that your way may not be the be all and end all, and be open to learning something, you might find this a more helpful resource.

    Rebecca:
    I am taking your advice and in the future will use as role models the humble approach taken by The Arena’s own Dr’s Spooner and Kirby.

    As a clinician, I use The Arena as a research arm the same way I use Journals of Diabetic Biochemistry, Cellular Mollecular Theory and Gait and Posture, as references to something that I do of which I have no very little knowledge and skills. I refer to The Arena’s work and importance all the time (references: Dr. Block’s Listserve).

    I was baited to your site desiring to defend my patent which you published and have never needed you as a resource.

    Finally, and sincerely (look in a mirror, hahahah)
    Rebecca, I’m sorry Functional Foot Typing has not worked for you. Maybe if you took a more humble approach, imagine that your way may not be the be all and end all, and be open to learning something, you might find FFT a more helpful research.

    “You should examine yourself daily. If you find faults, you should correct them. When you find none, you should try even harder”.
    Israel Zangwill
     
  19. Ian Linane

    Ian Linane Well-Known Member

    Hi Dennis

    On another thread I said I was bored, on this one I simply find your postings predictably disappointing and simply serving me a good dollop of compulsion, sadly, to remain ignorant of your patent and work.

    Whilst I'm sure spooner and Kirby rate me small in the biomech understanding and I have been bashed by them I'd rather be bashed by them and curse them for the bruises than be bored to death by your postings like the above.

    Still maybe you have satisfaction in encouraging me to sink with sufficient boredom to the bait.

    Ian

    Cheers
    Ian
     
  20. lol. You may have been bashed, but y'all know more about forensic podiatry than me or the majority here= keep up the good work in elevating the profession. You've been the stimulus for good conversation with one of my patients; he works in intelligence and is fascinated in the progress being made.

    Moral to this tale? Everyone gets bashed from time to time (myself included), but respect is earned through the contributions made and those that give to the Arena rather than take gain far much more in the long run.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2008
  21. Ian Linane

    Ian Linane Well-Known Member

    Digressing slightly, for anyone interested there is an interesting and readable paper on gait and forensics:

    N. Lynnerup and J. Vedel, "Person identification by gait analysis and photogrammetry", Journal of Forensic Science. 50(1), 112-118 (2005).
    Cheers
    Ian
     
  22. drsha

    drsha Banned

    digessing even more the stock moarket is rocky and this may effect the way we live our lic=ves

    dennis
     
  23. Digessing? Moarket? Lic=ves? :wacko: :drinks :wacko:

    Nice work Dennis.:morning:
     
  24. True thing! And I tend to find it is when I am being minced that I am learning most.


    Kind regards
    Robert.
    a student.
     
  25. :rolleyes:
     
  26. drsha

    drsha Banned

    Kevin;
    Your perverse drive to not let go of an argument shows an amazing lack of tact and interpersonal accomplishment. I hope you have enough skills to treat your grandchildren differently but I doubt it.
    I was busy before I was baited into The Arena and I digressed from my schedule to spend one month debating with the members.
    I have such a high regard for you as a mentor and teacher but this episode has virtually eliminated any regard that I have for you as a person.
    Do you think I would deal with you after stating that you were having mean fun at my expense?
    Your box is so small, so tight and so Kirby that there is no room for anyone else.

    Unlike your members who seem to idolize your gifts and show you a respectful (but I assure you false) face, I cannot tolerate your mean and dark side and I have done fairly well with my life until now without you.

    I know this will bring a smile to your face when I say that if not for you, I would probably still find time to be involved with The Arena as I have found it very educational and challenging.

    I will always be cordial and professional to you should we meet but please know that the further I keep me and mine from you, I believe, the better off we will be.

    "May all your teeth fall out but one and may it irritate your gums". Ancient Jewish Curse
    Dennis
     
  27. Dennis:

    I wish you the best of luck in your quest to improve the functional outcomes with custom foot orthoses. With that, we share a mutual goal. Peace be with you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2008
  28. Quite right. Sorry Kevin i've only shown you respect up until now out of fear.:pigs: Thanks for speaking for us Dennis, i never found the courage before.

    Dark side. Darth Kirby. I can see it now.:D "Always two there are, a master and and an apprentice. " Do you need a new avatar?

    Whilst i appreciate your depth of feeling Dennis i find it hard to take lessons in tact from someone who tells colleagues to get laid at the weekend and casts aspirsions on somebodies abilities as a family figure.

    Also i think invoking an ancient jewish curse is a first for the arena!

    But here i stop for i fear the padlock of justice must soon descend upon this thread...

    Shalom
    Robert
     
  29. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    Hi Dennis

    Well I have followed this thread ( and others where you are involved )and I am sorry to have to tell you...

    Being an Atheist and immune to curses I have to put in my 2 cents worth

    .

    So we all bow down to you then without question ??

    My Grandchildren are taught human skills by ME because I have the "Time in" to have the wisdom and knowledge that can only be gained by experience AS I assume does Kevin. The implication you make is insulting AND personal which IMO ain't on fella :mad:
    .
    I'm sure he will lose sleep over that:rolleyes:

    No comment ;):D

    Please you continue to do so and meanwhile, we who all live in the dark "Kirby world" where we learn and advance our knowledge from a scientifically proven source of information will do the same with genuine Honest respect !!.

    .

    Well Whoopee Doo same as the rest of us then but with Kevins input

    Leaving town then ??

    Now that IS too far.

    Here cometh the words from an old fakir called DTT.

    You are and absolute to**er IMO who again,IMHO is doing his best to destroy the reputation of one of the most respected biomechanical minds in the world.

    Now being old and not suffering fools gladly , I cant have you because you have turned this into a personally offensive ( to me never mind Kevin) attack on someone who dares to disagree and challenge you.

    Get over yourself !!

    Your self opinionated twaddle is boring and quite frankly laughable so perhaps the Arena is no place for you ??

    So another curse for you from me

    "may the fleas of a thousand Camels infect you Ar*eh*le and you scratch till you reach your mouth ( if there is a difference and obviously not far apart)

    As one from the " Dark side" being known as Darth Tatar I welcome Darth Kirby to my world ""

    Sorry CP Ban me if you must but it had to be said by someone :rolleyes:

    Cheers
    Derek;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2008
  30. Robert and Derek:

    Thought you might appreciate this one.
     
  31. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    :D:D:D

    Love it

    Cheers
    Derek ;)
     
  32. drsarbes

    drsarbes Well-Known Member

    Hi Kevin:
    I've looked these threads over.
    I think you have made a very good observation.
    Not surprising.
    Steve
     
  33. :D:D:D

    Love it! You mean ole dark lord of the sith you.

    And i don't think i'm alone in saying the "old fakir" has eloquently and accuratly stated the case. THAT, dennis, is the arena being mean! Kevin is actually one of the nice and tactful ones! You see the difference?

    Regards
    Robert
     
  34. It is still nice, every now and then, to hear from my peers that they appreciate the effort that has gone into trying to improve the academic excellence of our profession. Thanks for the support!:drinks
     
  35. Graham

    Graham RIP

    Kevin,

    Nobody can argue that you have been, and are, at the forefront of theoretical thought and development. However, theoretical excellence can only be supported by objective testing for validity, reproduceability and repeatability. Therory without the testing is only partial accademia.

    with respect.
     

  36. Graham:

    Coming from you, I will take that as a compliment.:drinks
     
  37. Graham:

    Just to let you know I have been actively involved recently in scientific research to support or refute the theory that subtalar joint axis location and STJ moments may signficantly affect foot function.

    1) I am coauthor on a research paper that will be published in JAPMA in January 2009 with two Spanish podiatrists that investigates the static response of maximally pronated and non-maximally pronated feet to varus and valgus wedging of orthoses.

    2) I am coauthor on a research paper that has been accepted for publication in JAPMA and will likely be published in late 2009 with the same Spanish podiatrists that investigates the dynamic response of feet to varus and valgus rearfoot wedges.

    3) I am coauthor on a research paper that will be published in early 2009 in the Journal of Biomechanics with biomechanics researchers from Penn State Biomechanics Lab on a new non-invasive method of determining the spatial location of the subtalar joint axis in live subjects.

    4) I am author of a chapter in a book to be published within the next 6 months on foot orthosis research, foot orthosis theory and foot orthosis biomechanics.

    5) The subtalar joint axis locator that Simon Spooner and I codeveloped will soon be used in a major biomechanics lab in the US to hopefully improve forward dynamics models of the foot and lower extremity.

    I thought you might like to know that I am not only currently involved in producing improved biomechanics theory, but am working with other researchers around the world to scientifically validate or refute the theories I have proposed.
     
  38. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    Would applying the theories learned via Dr. Kirby's (and others who contribute here) myriad research and theoretical designs and applying them in daily practice suffice to then be termed 'academic' Graham?

    I have discarded much of the traditional subtalar neutral theory based biomechanics in my daily practice and adopted these developing theories and methods. Clinically my results are much improved and patient satisfaction is very high.

    When I was in college far too much emphasis was placed on academics, research studies, scores and such. Little of this mattered as I found out in the real world where we see clinical improvement that refutes studies to the contrary.

    Your thoughts?

    Regards,
     
  39. Graham

    Graham RIP

    David and Kevin,

    Sounds like solid "accademic" research Kevin. I look forward to reading and digesting. Well done. However, when applying any theoretical model in the practice setting, using quality outcome measures alone does not tell us if our therapy is making a positive difference in gait patters or just changing them, therefore stressing another area to become painful later.

    Again, the in-shoe force measurement gives you an additional view of your therapy. Sometimes with suprising/unexpected results.

    Graham
     
  40. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    Graham,

    I must have missed prior conversations. You appear to be eluding to in-shoe measuring devices to validate outcomes (?). I wonder how many of you out there feel this is necessary or have an opinion on how this affects prescribing and daily practice?

    Much of the medical model is based on clinical outcomes and how they quantify those outcomes varies widely. Is it really required that we explore every possible adverse effect of a basically benign medium such as orthoses when we can quantify if the device is improving the patients presenting complaint(s), is comfortable and due to the issue of compliance; which IS very important.

    What if the patients' complaint(s) is(are) improved and yet when we do an F-Scan it shows an abnormal pattern or 'asymmetry' unique to that individual? Do we "throw the baby out with the bath water" and begin over because some artificial device doesn't agree with subjective or clinically objective findings?

    Mainly because I have seen the F-Scan data on an insert with the consistency of bologna give the representation that pressure areas of the foot were allegedly off-loaded, gait patterns improved etc. Apparently exsanguinated bologna (silicone in this case) effects GRF, COP, COM etc enough to give the impression of efficacy but I wasn't convinced because I wore one of these nifty gems and that wasn't the outcome that I experienced.

    ;)

    Help me to understand how these scans validate or negate what we see clinically? Doesn't the fact that the device is placed in a shoe change how the orthoses interface with the user and the scan data. God knows that shoe change the function of orthoses dramatically, I wonder how we account for that.
     
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