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"Foot Pain Relief in Less than 7 Minutes"

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by CamWhite, May 21, 2010.

  1. CamWhite

    CamWhite Active Member

    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    This is the claim of "Ideal Feet" - a small franchise that operates a store in Austin. They claim to be able to relieve foot pain in "7 minutes or less" by re-aligning the bones of the feet to their natural position. A "custom" orthotic can be fitted the same day within 20-30 minutes for $300-$400. They do not accept returns.

    Here's a link to their "science" page:


    Comments, anyone?

    They must be very good:rolleyes:. In 7 minutes or less, we've barely introduced ourselves, much less having them walk out of our store with a "custom" solution.
  2. RobinP

    RobinP Well-Known Member

    Re: Foot Pain Relief in Less than 7 Minutes

    Cam - you sound as if you are not taking their claims seriously?

    I can't imagine why?

    A podiatrist generally makes custom molded orthotics - using a mold from your already damaged foot. Ideal Feet products are designed to balance your whole body from your feet up by helping the 26 bones of your feet find their ideal position, so your body can heal itself naturally.

    Thats it folks. We might as well just wrap up this website. We're all crap and just plain doing it wrong.

  3. CamWhite

    CamWhite Active Member

    Re: Foot Pain Relief in Less than 7 Minutes

    You can just imagine how podiatrists in Austin feel about these claims.

    The radio and TV airwaves are hammered with Ideal Feet ads. When you sell a $25 piece of pre-formed plastic for $400, you have a lot of money for advertising.

    They use a very advanced "wet paper" test determine the appropriate "custom" orthotic for your feet.

    As P.T. Barnum said "There's a sucker born every minute".
  4. Re: Foot Pain Relief in Less than 7 Minutes

    Yep, saw one today with a bag full of orthoses she had purchased from a, thankfully, now retired local shamopodist, she had back pain and bilateral severe hallux valgus. Her bunions which the previous shamopodist maintained were caused by her back problems were her main issue as they were painful. In my opinion, the pain in her bunions was caused by her choice of footwear- court shoes. I told her so, and didn't sell her any more orthoses. She appeared a little ****** with my suggestion to buy some wider fitting shoes rather than take her money to sell her some more orthoses. The orthoses she already had hadn't "helped with either her back pain nor her bunion pain" but she was willing to pay for some more in order to let her continue wearing her court shoes... Anything other than change her choice of shoe-gear.:bash:

    In this case I could have given foot pain relief in less than 10 seconds: take off your shoes...
  5. Lab Guy

    Lab Guy Well-Known Member

    Re: Foot Pain Relief in Less than 7 Minutes

    Reading the website, it looks like the same company with a different name as "Good Feet Stores" whose founder is Harry Hlavac who used to be a guest lecturer at the Calif College of Podiatry School. If the founder is not Harry Hlavac, DPM, then it is a copy of his business model.

    The company appears to be using the same type of OTC orthotics as well. The OTC orthotics they use resemble MASS position theory orthoses, full contact with a very high arch.

    Just as Orthopods dropped the ball by ignoring the foot, Podiatrists have dropped the ball by ignoring biomechanics/orthotics and allowing anyone to measure a foot and dispense custom fit orthotics for high prices.

  6. Re: Foot Pain Relief in Less than 7 Minutes

    Oh there are some gems there!
    Oh? Poor sesamoids.
    There is that "ideal position" again...
    They "reduce the force on the body". Clever, very clever. And the Torque on the body. I don't know what that means. Anyone help me?

    There it is again!

    Is it now...


    WAY COOL!!!

    Call me Naive but where is the 4th arch?
  7. Re: Foot Pain Relief in Less than 7 Minutes

    1 medial longitudinal arch
    2 lateral longitudinal arch
    3 proximal transverse metatarsal arch
    4 distal transverse metatarsal arch

    I hear about them everyday "My frontfoot arch has fallen my Dr, ortho surgeon said so. You don´t have a forefoot arch says I"(ie the distal transverse metatarsal arch.), you should see some of the faces. So tell me where it hurts so we can get started on building you a treatment plan for you problem,.....
  8. Re: Foot Pain Relief in Less than 7 Minutes

    Ah, I'd not encountered the transverse arch split into two. Thanks!

    You think you get a reaction from patients when you tell them the met arch is a fantasy, try it in front of a lecture hall full of osteopaths!

    If I'd dropped my pants and displayed my backside they could not have been more outraged!!
  9. Re: Foot Pain Relief in Less than 7 Minutes

    Ever had an ortho ring you and abuse you for not knowing your anatomy that the transverse metatarsal arch collapse is a ligit diagnosis and that if I´m going to deal with patients I should have greater knowledge... I have.

    Said surg got upset when I offered to send over some journals which show the Transverse metatarsal arch does not excist if I could get an email address .... I found myself talking to air ..... Fun and games
  10. JB1973

    JB1973 Active Member

    Re: Foot Pain Relief in Less than 7 Minutes

    If I'd dropped my pants and displayed my backside they could not have been more outraged!!

    would that be a 5th arch!

  11. Ian Linane

    Ian Linane Well-Known Member

    Re: Foot Pain Relief in Less than 7 Minutes

    If I'd dropped my pants and displayed my backside they could not have been more outraged!!

    would that be a 5th arch!


    No - just an extremely distal plantar fascial groove! :D
  12. Re: Foot Pain Relief in Less than 7 Minutes

    There are some things which should NEVER be the basis for a caption competition!!
  13. sesadler

    sesadler Member

    Re: Foot Pain Relief in Less than 7 Minutes

    I'd love to have those journals! Links? Even just ref's so I can pull them.
    Haven't had this happen, but could sure use the back up evidence when discussing it!

    As for the rest of the thread: some of the casts I make sure resemble a 'less damaged' foot than the one they strode in on. But I know, I know: my custom orthotics won't put the foot into it's 'ideal position'.

  14. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

  15. Re: Foot Pain Relief in Less than 7 Minutes

    Heres 2 full text papers for you as well. Orginally put on PA by Ian, but he must be playing golf.

    Attached Files:

  16. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Had a similar thing happen to me just last week Rob. Breakfast time in the clinic kitchen and I casually dropped into conversation the transverse arch 'myth'. The Physio reacted as if I'd just put my cock in his coffee.

    Sadly not Mike. MSc dissertation deadline next week. Bad times.
  17. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    Jeff Root recently posted in a thread quoting his father's paper Understanding Functional Orthoses regarding the notion of holding the foot in the ideal position. I believe (correct me if I am wrong) what Merton Root stated was that a functional orthosis resist abnormal forces and improves foot function only.

    After years of dispensing and evaluating outcomes I agree with Dr. Root's assessment. This is why these one-size-fits-all and "ideal foot shape" designs fail for pathology. I could go on ad nauseum but I think their 94% success rate sounds eerily like the P&B debacle all over again.

    A couple customers reviewed these. No surprise here what they write.


    Same turd new lawn. Watch your shoes people...;)
  18. drsha

    drsha Banned

    Re: Foot Pain Relief in Less than 7 Minutes

    Is this an example of your clinical prowess?

    Have you gotten an advanced copy of our level I article entitled: The Barefoot Revolution mentioned on another thread?

    I guess if she stated that she would like to try another treatment other than taking off her shoes you would suggest walking on her hands (more level I evidence).

    Mr Hyde
  19. Re: Foot Pain Relief in Less than 7 Minutes

    Yawn. Here's the skill, identifying that the problem was being caused by ill-fitting footwear, suggesting that she get some better fitting footwear- providing her with a series of shoe gear options which she was happy to accept and purchase. Which was a cheaper alternative and I suspect will provide more effective relief of her symptoms than flogging her another pair of orthoses to cram into her already over-crowded shoes. Don't you use footwear in your treatment plans then, Dennis?
  20. TedJed

    TedJed Active Member

    I can't see the noun 'arch' actually defined in this thread.

    arch n. A structure, consisting of wedge shaped segments, forming the curved, pointed, or flat upper edge of an open space and supporting the weight above it.

    There are wedge shaped segments in the proximal transverse arch (cuneiforms) but where are the wedge shaped segments of the medial longitudinal arch?

    If it is accepted that the bones of the MLA are the talus, navicular, cuneiforms, 1-3 rays, the articular surfaces (frontal plane) of these bones are actually rather parallel, not wedge shaped. Without ligaments or tendons, would they support the weight above it? No.

    The lateral longitudinal arch consists of the calcaneus, cuboid and 4-5 rays. (BTW, pods often include the calcaneus in the bones of the MLA.)

    Anatomically and functionally, the MLA and the LLA are not self supporting or composed of wedge shaped segments therefore, by definition are not arches. They are arch shape in appearance, but not function.

    They are rather, columnar structures. Functionally, disruption between the medial column and the lateral column results in 2 of the most common conditions we see clinically; plantar fasciitis and Morton's neuromas.

    Plantar Fasciitis: Medial band's origin is in the lateral column (calc) and insertion is in the medial column (1st ray).

    Anterior subluxation of the talus:navic:cun's:1-3 extends the distance from PF origin-insertion. Voila! Stress to the PF.

    Neuroma: primary site of presentation is the 3rd I-M space. This is the junction between the medial and lateral columns.

    Anterior displacement (subluxation) of the medial column relative to the lateral column stresses the connective tissues between the 2 columns in the 3rd I-M space.

    Treatment plans addressing the dysfunction between the med and lat columns with manual therapies may need implementation when the clinical signs of ant talar subluxation are present.

  21. I'm not sure about the neuroma thing but that's the clearest and most concise disputation of a functional "arch" I've ever read!
  22. sesadler

    sesadler Member

  23. Jeff Root

    Jeff Root Well-Known Member

    Re: Foot Pain Relief in Less than 7 Minutes

    I don't think Harry founded the Goodfeet Stores but he may have worked in or owned one. I know the company had a lot of franchise related issues. If memory serves me, the founder left the country due to legal issues. Here is what I did find in a quick search:

    I am Rosalinda W. Johnson, referred to within your Blog-O-Scope about the GOOD FEET STORE. My husband, Joseph Paul Polifroni, and I are the founders and were the sole owners of the GOOD FEET STORE until 2004 when we sold the company.
  24. Bill Bird

    Bill Bird Active Member

    I'm interested in the use of the term column. In structural engineering, a column is a vertical structure usually much longer in height than in width, that is stressed along the vertical axis. The tibia would be such a thing.

    They use the word beam, to mean a long rigid structure that takes stress across the long axis. I remember that Merton Root used the word beam to describe the first ray when the mid-tarsal joint is locked.

    As I think of the whole movement of the gait cycle, I can see that what begins as three beams in the forefoot at midstance, rapidly shifts to three columns during propulsion. Is that right?

    Bill Bird
  25. Jeff Root

    Jeff Root Well-Known Member

    Sounds like an excellent business opportunity. Just open a store next to them called "Better than Ideal Feet" and advertise foot pain relief in six minutes or less for $299 to $399. Your posting reminded me of the movie There's Something About Mary. My son's and I frequently quote part of the following scene, which we think is hilarious:
  26. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    Hmmm, sounds like the sort of scam dished out by the likes of The Orthotic Group (TOG or AOG) & Foot Levelers Inc. i.e. dishing out glorified prefabs based on some pressure points found on a 2D representation of the foot... with chiropractors being the usual dispenser (in relation to the above two companies).

    TOG dish out a prefab orthotic shell while Foot Levelers dish out an insole with a varus heel wedge & some generic arch cookies to support the heavily advertised "3 arches of the foot" (oh, once again Foot Levelers Inc. - I am entitled to my point of view... so you can put your lawyers away!)

    Here is a link with a video from what I take it to be a Canadian Current Affairs/Investigation type program which looks into the prescribing of orthotics...
    Is that thing in your shoe worth the money you paid?
    Of particular interest is 7.40 to about 9.00 min. in the video... with TOG coming under question as well as the chiropractors who used their system (i.e. GaitScan).

    There appears to be no description of the product but with the following quotes taken from the website, clues are present as to what the assessment practice is like & subsequently what the product could be i.e.

    How much do these measurement correlate to the actual product?

    What reference (parameters) do you use to assess these co called "hot spots"?

    Yes, don't bother addressing footwear issues which could be the likely cause of the problem - just attempt to accommodate it :craig:... with a glorified arch support.

    What a load of generalised rubbish. 'Ideal Feet' are obviously ignorant of the assessment practices of Podiatrists & are willing to engage in unprofessional innuendos to further their financial interest at the expense of the public & legitimate health professionals. The relevant associations in the US should do something about it soon.
  27. sesadler

    sesadler Member

    "Custom made orthotics and drug store arch supports are what most people try first when they feel pain in their feet or back. Since none of these products, even custom made orthotics, are designed to restore the arch to its ideal position, any relief is usually temporary and not the result of objective scientific research. In fact, a mold of your foot is exactly what you do not want. A mold of a damaged foot is not designed to put the foot into its ideal position, it only fills the gaps until the foot gets worse, which will happen ." (http://www.idealfeet.com/index.php?q=node/4)

    I find it interesting that the terms 'drug store arch supports' and "Custom made orthotics" in the same sentence and then progressing to a full fledged attempt to debunk the use of custom made orthotics by implying that the mold made by Podiatrists (or I presume anyone else: Orthopaedist, CO, C.Ped) is a representation of a 'damaged foot'.

    About the only time I would try and capture a 'damaged' foot is if the foot was, indeed, damaged (ie: charcot, severe midfoot arthritis, etc.) and even then when 'it only fills in the gaps' the pressures are redistributed and the patient becomes more comfortable.

    What really surprises me about the business model is that it seems to be claiming that they have more information, knowledge and ability that the medical field trained to diagnose and treat disorders of the foot and ankle.

    ----Stephen :deadhorse:
  28. This should not surprise you. It's SOP for snake oil salesmen!

    Follow the snake oil tag and you'll see!
  29. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    Amen. Did Foot Levelers really sick their lawyers on you Matthew? If you want to twist your stomach into knots, you should peruse the self-promoting columns written in one of our trade monthlies by their 'experts consultants'. The problem is that the word orthotic is such a generalized term and that there is no licensure in many of the states here in the U.S. Basically anyone can sell any supportive device to the public and call it an orthotic. There is an entire thread on PA discussing the lexicon of what we provide now.
  30. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    Hi David,

    Yes they did - twice! They contacted a large legal firm in Sydney (Australia) where I was subjected to their bullying/scare tactics. Why?... They didn't like my personal opinion of their product i.e. Foot Leveler insole.

    Ironically they got word about this from a Dr Edward Butterworth as a result of the following thread on this forum... Another type of proprioceptive orthotics... which you would be familiar with. Dr Butterworth who posts under the guise of healthmarque on this forum asked if the above cited thread could be viewed by anybody. At post # 57 Ian stated that it could be found via a Google search. Well not only the thread in question could be found at about position 3... but also my views on his Healthmarque PZ Prescriptive Orthotics could be found further down the Google list, which I wrote about 12 - 18 months ago.

    Dr Butterworth naturally discovers this, he sends me an email & we engage in a similar dialogue to that of the associated thread. Just to let you all know... Dr Butterworth expressed to me that he didn't find his experience on this forum a happy one (you probably all knew that anyway). I subsequently check out the thread to find out what he was talking about. He used a series of colourful words & expressions but did not answer my questions. I told him that if he can provide the slightest bit of evidence to substantiate his claims & accusations I was willing to remove his product from the list. His last email to me stated that he would be in contact with the other subjects on the list... here is where Foot Levelers enters the story.

    Anyway, Dr Butterworth has visited me at my clinic well before all of this (about 3-4 years ago) in an attempt to get Podiatrists on board to prescribing his product i.e. the Healthmarque PZ Prescriptive Orthotics. He performed an applied kinesiology test on me & based on my results he advised which of the pouches in the insole needed to be filled with the crumbled pieces of red poron/rubber (ok, ok, stop laughing). He looked at the sole of my RM Williams boots & informed me that I have some problems (I don't think I do - seriously :confused:). About this time I could have sworn I saw one of these :pigs: fly past my window. We exchanged pleasantries & parted company.

    About an hour after our visit I thought it would be a good idea to have possession of his product so I called him up & purchased the starter kit for $200. This included a pair of rubber inlays (my size), a bag of crumbled pieces of red poron, forceps, two large modified syringes, a manual & an instruction video. I filled my rubber inlay pouches (only the appropriate pouches) with the crumbled poron & wore them. No, don't ask (the things I do).

    I do feel a bit sorry for the guy. Apparently there was some controversy over in Italy from where he inquired about the idea. He was ripped off from memory (he did tell me). I think this conduct alone should have given him alarm bells right from the start as to the nature of people behind the concept. However, I think his daughter has bad scoliosis.

    I was sincerely going to take his product off the list but he didn't get back to me. He just got Foot Levelers involved (from what I have heard is a very large US based company) who can obviously afford expensive legal support.

    Yes, I can imagine. A Chiropractor friend gave me a CD of theirs called "DC Confidential" he received from a seminar. This was enough to annoy me.

    I realise that Foot Leveler Inc. heavily promote to Chiropractors.

    I have read your comments in the past & all I can say is that I am glad there are Chiropractors like you around - you are a credit to the profession.

    Yes, it is a problem. It is basically the same here in Australia as well. Like I said, something needs to be done.

    I was walking through an agriculture show once & I saw what I later found to be a massage therapist getting people to walk over a sensor plate. Having an inquisitive nature I returned about 5 min. later to find him grinding some shells which he removed from a plastic template type thing. I naturally became more curious & got my camera out to take a picture of this template of orthotic shells, where we nearly got into a fight... but that's another story.
  31. I generally don't much like pseudonyms on forums, I like to know the name of the person I'm talking to. But because you put your name on the bottom and because your pseudonym is so appropriate, I rather like yours ben;). You seem nicely scrappy. :boxing::drinks

    I'm sorry his daughter is ill. But that does not give him the right to make such exuberant claims on such absurdly flimsy rationale. IMO (just to keep it covered by "fair comment";))

    Ah, great thread (wipes nostalgic tear away). I'd forgotten that one.

    I've made many, many posts on this arena. Some I've been pleased with. Others I've looked back at with chagrin. If I had to pick out what I thought was my best it would be this one http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiatry-forum/showpost.php?p=130001&postcount=50

    In which I managed to resize and overlay anatomy pictures with the diagram of the insole to show that the pockets in no way correspond to the muscles they are meant to stimulate, and that the muscles overlap and are therefore impossible to stimulate individually by flicking the skin.

    We've seen some rubbish on here but that....
  32. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    Matt (I hope I can call you that, I'm assuming others do but if it's not what you wish to be called please tell me),

    Great to meet you, even if from afar and to hear your story. It is always fascinating to me how having an opinion and as Robert points out and some scrap can land you in deep water with the sharks circling. I had a similar experience with a company that sells a device to my colleagues to the point where their competitor (who won several lawsuits and judgments against them and offered me their legal counsel to defend my position should that become necessary) implied they would force me to defend my comments (opinions) made on a web board.

    I have made numerous similar comments about both of the companies that you have mentioned and while I don't want to invite litigation, I will speak my mind and call a turd a turd (Robert is very fond of my cowpie theme!) You sound a lot like me, where you just cannot allow flagrant misinformation and claims to stand. Maybe its a fault I don't know but there are a number of us around here with a similar mindset.

    I enjoyed the thread that you referenced greatly. I had hoped that Ed would have stayed and provided a greater degree of proof for his claims but that did not happen and the thread became more of an examination of AK and chiropractic than about his insoles. That was fine with me (although I never was able to provide Michael Weber an explanation of the foot/TMJ connection), Stanley and I had a good discussion and although we don't see eye to eye I value Stanley's work and beliefs; he is entitled to them as am I.

    Thank you for your kind words. I truly would like to see my profession progress and earn the due that I feel it is worthy of. A large part of that in my estimation would be abandoning certain outdated concepts and moving away from certain product brands that are embedded deeply within the chiropractic professional subconscious. As podiatry moves farther away from biomechanics (and this is what I see happening slowly over time) I feel that my colleagues are in a unique position to learn about proper orthosis casting, prescribing and dispensing at a very high level. At least in the U.S. Will this occur? Not likely but there are those out there with a the desire and a more advanced skill set who want to learn and adopt better practices and move away from marketing. We couldn't have done this without the innovators in podiatry and the new generation of biomechanists who are furthering the art and science of podiatric biomechanics. I certainly could not have and I am still learning, probably always will be, as are we all.

    I am considering writing some articles for the chiropractic monthly to offer a different perspective to the old status quo. Every article regarding the lower extremity and orthoses is a paid advertisement for one company that does to its credit give a lot back to the profession. I don't expect that I will make many friends but I may reach a few interested colleagues and interest them in the path I have taken and that has given my patients so much. In the process I may end up in the same schism that you found yourself in. I welcome that to be honest because sometimes you have to argue to arrive at a deeper understanding and for change to occur.

    You should contribute more my friend, you have a lot to offer and a lot of great insight. I hope to discuss more detailed biomechanical subjects with you in the future but I am really a small fish in a very large pond here and lurk a good deal.

    And don't let the bastards get you down. As the saying goes a man who doesn't stand for something will fall for almost anything. That is how these marketeers make their bones and what they are counting on.

    Here, I'll stand with you; Foot Levelers are not medical devices, they are 'customized' and not truly custom from a volumetric cast, are casted in an inferior manner and medium (with no training generally), are made from one material inconsistent with a functional orthosis. They should be billed as a longitudinal accommodative arch device and they should substantiate their marketing claims, especially the proprioceptive claims where their consultants have referenced Brian Rothbart!:hammer:

  33. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    Hi Robert,

    Yes, it was well done – it conveyed the issue at hand very effectively. As the saying goes... a picture tells a thousand words. I bet he himself never looked at his device in that fashion before... in relation to the actual reality of anatomy present. It was probably a wake-up call for him (well, at least for a moment).

    I was thinking the same thing as I was being tested. I sometimes wonder if Dr Butterworth actually believes within himself that his assessment practice is valid. It all seemed a bit hit & miss at the time. After the assessment he even had the audacity to question Podiatry based assessment practices. We didn’t quite get into an argument but he alluded that I was closed minded to other alternatives.

    Hi David,

    Matt is fine (thank you). I’m glad I’m not the only one that has had dealings with bullying multimillion dollar companies. That was nice of that other company to lend support. I hadn’t spoken publically of my experience on this matter... only a couple of colleagues (one of which is my brother who is also a Podiatrist).

    I certainly don’t see it a fault (for reasons you later raise). I think to do & say nothing is a fault. We are in professions to help people in health & wellbeing. I feel this also includes informing on dubious health practices which offer little to no help at a high cost. Clients have come to me with unresolved problems from wearing Foot Leveler insoles... & they paid big money for them also. Information on this matter was the intention of the web page in question.

    I wasn’t aware of Podiatry moving further away from biomechanics... I have always seen it as one of the key aspects of Podiatry in the future.

    All the best... & your reasoning for doing so is true. I hope it will be an asset for the profession.

    I see Podiatry Arena as a great resource & I will try to contribute more if time permits. Between running my own business, training for running, I also contribute to a running/athletic based forum. However I think it is great to nut things out & bounce ideas off your peers in the fields of interest. I have received valuable insights from the minds on this forum. Getting different perspectives from different training bases regarding the same subject matter does help a great deal in becoming more aware of the complete picture/implications of the physiology involved.

    Yes, I believe likewise. I think the issue is over now. In fact, the more they pushed, the more I added to the page in question (i.e. pictures & reasoning). However, I did feel it wise to remove any direct reference to their name i.e. “Foot leveler” to “Feet leveler device which has got pelvic stabilising claims” didn’t cut it... I better not say any more.

    Hmmm... it wouldn’t surprise me that they referenced Brian Rothbart views with their product.

    Anyway, thanks allot for the support. Lets us know if you have any problems yourself with your quest.

    Kind regards,
  34. joejared

    joejared Active Member

    I especially like this comment:

    The problem with "Custom Made" orthotics is that they bare more art than science. They are a mold of an already damaged foot.
    Yet another pressure plate system for making orthotics, but we know better. Here's an arch support. We didn't look at your arch, didn't need to but it's better than what the trained professional can do, so we'll charge more. Yea, well marketed fecal matter.
  35. CamWhite

    CamWhite Active Member

    Actually, in this case, it's not even a "pressure plate" test. It's a "wet brown paper footprint" test.
  36. joejared

    joejared Active Member

    Oh, in that case, well marketed fecal matter of the proper color. :deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:
  37. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    Surely not?! :eek:
  38. CamWhite

    CamWhite Active Member

    Yes, Indeedee!

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