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Is a Sub 2 hour Marathon Possible?

Discussion in 'Break Room' started by Craig Payne, Sep 30, 2013.

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  1. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    I just realized that the shoes he used, the adizero Adios BOOST, have a 10.4mmm drop --- so they NOT "low heel height differential"
     
  2. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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  3. Admin2

    Admin2 Administrator Staff Member

    Eliud Kipchoge just did 2:04:11 in the Chicago Marathon.
     
  4. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    ...and he did it wearing Nike Zoom Streak 5's ... cushioned shoes with a 12mm drop.

    Anyone seeing the pattern in what the fast guys are wearing?
     
  5. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    And here are the elite men from todays New York Marathon
    - spot the heel strikers
    - all in cushioned shoes with >10mm drop

    ... go figure

    Wilson Kipsang and Mary Keitany won in 2hr, 10min, 59sec. and 2hr, 25min, 7sec.
     

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  6. No one going to mention the 36th Kenyan postive in the last 2 years?

    Jeptoo positive for EPO


    So while the shoes and foot striking is interesting, my bet if the sub 2 hour marathon is possible, the laboratory is the place much of the gains will occur
     
  7. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Elite women heel striking at New York --- .... :D
     

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  8. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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  9. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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  10. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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  11. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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  12. NewsBot

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    Fastest Age-adjusted Marathon World Records Of All Time
    Paul M. Vanderburgh, FACSM.
    Presented at the ACSM Meeting; San Diego May 2015
     
  16. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Berlin 2015 is on Sunday; Kimetto is running; 4 of the last 5 world records in the marathon have been set in Berlin ... will he do it again?
     
  17. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Anyone watching Berlin? I can't get it live here and web streaming is blocked from here! Have to follow it on Twitter ... 10k splits looks like they might go sub 2.04, but no world record.

    Ross Tucker is predicting a 2:03:27.
     
  18. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Just caught this on twitter:
    WTF?
     
  19. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Kipchoge wins the Berlin Marathon 2015 in 2:04:01 ...
     
  20. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Here is photo that Dennis Rehbock took on his TV of the shoe problem!
     

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    here is better image of what happened:
     

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    Kenyan Marathoner Falls Short of Record After Nike Shoes Fail
     
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  24. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    The jokes have started on how to run faster.
    This one via Mike Sexton‎ @ Running Shoe Geeks
     

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  25. Griff

    Griff Moderator

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    Hat tip to Simon Bartold for this one:

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
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  28. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    Didn't see the race live (2016 London Marathon)... just seen some footage on YouTube. Crikey, Eliud Kipchoge is a good (i.e. great) runner. Would be good to see the whole race based on reports of the (very fast) pace during the early stages.

    I feel Kipchoge certainly could have got the world record... maybe he wasn't aware he was that close (which would surprise me this day & age). He just looks so darn good running at this fast pace over the closing stages of 42.2km (last km at 2:52 pace - most seasoned runners can't do this pace for 1 sole km). The following link shows Kipchoge's pace during the race... http://results-2016.virginmoneylond...[age_class]=%&search[sex]=M&search_event=ELIT

    The following video shows his performance over the closing stages... relaxed, smooth, rhythmic... & some interesting lower limb work/function (being this is a Podiatry forum :rolleyes:)...



    For those interested... former 5000m World Champ. bronze medallist Craig Mottram (Australia) ran the race... finished in 2:28.39 (I believe he was aiming for an Olympic qualifier).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  29. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    Here is an interesting article (New York Times) on a research project in getting an athlete to break the 2hour marathon - it's a two part series: Man vs. Marathon - One scientist's quixotic quest to propel a runner past the two-hour barrier (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/15/sports/two-hour-marathon-yannis-pitsiladis.html?_r=0)

    [Here is the official 'Sub 2 Hours' website: http://www.sub2hrs.com/)

    - Interesting snippets from the article (the lead researcher is Prof. Yannis Pitsiladis):

    - There is a discussion on footwear (which we've pretty much heard ad nauseam :wacko: ):

    In short... I take it that Pitsiladis has not heard of the 'cost of cushioning hypothesis' in relation to running economy... after all, all the major & fast course marathons I'm aware of are held on hard unforgiving road surfaces (i.e. Berlin, London, Chicago, Boston etc...).

    The research project does seem to have a biomechanics department of sorts... http://www.sub2hrs.com/the-science#biomechanics-and-modelling

    - His workings with Kenenisa Bekele... which was trying at times:

    - Nanotechnology, clothing & what could be invasive technology:

    - Finding a specific location supposedly ideal for running this sub 2hour marathon:

    The rest of us will just have to put on our running gear & shoes, do the best training we can (with the time we have)... & run whatever marathon that is geographically/financially suitable for us.
     
  30. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Anyone following this yrs Berlin marathon? They went through the first 5km in 14:20; thats insane. If they keep that up (they won't), then thats a 2:00:58.
     
  31. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    At 10k, they on 2:02:22 pace.
     
  32. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    7 runners in lead group at half way in 61:11. That is well under world record pace.
     
  33. NewsBot

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    Bekele wins in 2:03:04 - the second fastest time ever.
     
  34. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha,
    To repeat a most famous catch phase, "Here me know and believe me latter the two hour marathon record time will drop by 10% within 10 years after the adoption of maximalism."

    Maximalism in gait applications must show significant and testable improvements in energy efficiency, physical protection, stability and greenability. It is the inverse of minimalism.

    Craig stated that the shoe worn was a declining wedged foam shoe with a 10mm drop, a simple machine that will increase horizontal velocity over a shorter time. i.e. a ball rolling down hill goes faster than one on flat ground.

    But we can do more by adding more simple machines to the ground contact. If we use applied physics.
    The lever would be a good place to start. Since a lever does work and foam does not we have a lot of room to run with this. I will remind every one that a lever is not a leaf spring and they do not function the same. F1D1=F2D2 is not the equation for a leaf spring nor PU or EVA foam but it is for a lever. Physics !! Yippee!

    The next area to look for innovation is with new advanced materials.
    Who watched those heroes in the finals for the T43 and T44 100-200-400m in Rio this year? Women and Mens. Please watch the youtube vids amazing.

    Were any of them using willow wood for their prosthetics?
    I am happy to say no wooden legs were on the track it was all advanced carbon fiber which was reported to the IOC and IAAF to have the ability to return 92% of its flexion energy with a set of Cheetahs.

    Is this cheating? Yes, compared to technologies that live in the past so please do not bring your horse to a NASCAR race.

    We are currently writing a letter to the NCAA to ensure fair and safe playing rules for all athletes in all sports that utilize maximalism.

    Ultimately the reason to bring this up with the NCAA is to insure that our scholar athletes that require assistance with advanced wearable technologies will not be made to feel guilty of cheating when it was us doctors and O&P professionals that recommended and dispensed the technology for them and their pathologies.

    Let's hope that someday there will not continue to be two separate Olympics but one with one main goal.

    Does anybody know what racing class Mr. Bolt is in since he is not a T43 nor T44 nor T12?

    Mahalo,
    Steve


    Leaf spring shoe by Nike
    https://www.google.com/patents/US7100308

    Lever simple machine enhanced shoe by Kingetics
    https://www.google.com/patents/US83...ved=0ahUKEwjToN6w5K3PAhUI1WMKHZ3CCNgQ6AEIHjAA

    Maximalism is what us docs are called to achieve. Let us just do it. Please...
     
  35. NewsBot

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    Five Observations from 2016 Berlin Marathon
    .
     
  36. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha,
    Ben-Hur you are very astute.
    "heard of the 'cost of cushioning hypothesis' in relation to running economy."
    http://www.runnersworld.com/sweat-s...ng-shoes-which-is-surprisingly-more-efficient

    When we were developing our shoes to make electricity the smart materials engineer on our team talked a lot about lossy vs. reactive impedance for energy production.
    For instance how much more work will your body need to do to do what it needs to do?
    If you are compressing a electric dynamo to create electricity what is the additional cost of transport for that effort?
    For example remember the old bike lights with the generator that would press on the wheel to make electricity? You could feel the drag or energy loss because of the system = lossy impedance
    upload_2016-9-26_15-24-17.jpeg

    [​IMG]

    This same concept can cross apply to the mechanical engineering field as well.
    If a shoe deforms to only absorb contact energy it has lossy impedance much like running in snow or soft sand.
    Soft sand and snow offer lower peak ground contact impulse but at a cost. I do not think the sub 2 hr marathon will be done in snow or on sand anytime soon.

    The goal is to create gait systems that utilizes reactive impedance with materials and mechanics that have a greater ability to return energy at the right time of gait at the right frequency with sufficient force to do helpful work. (Dr. Nigg's book Biomechanics of Sports Shoes chapter 7 on Work and Energy). Please all students of podiatry and biomechanics and footwear development should read this chapter.

    A hui hou,
    Steve
     
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  38. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha,

    Would the diluted Pepsi they serve us during the Maui Marathon and Maui Ocean Front Marathon qualify as a "carb drink" and thus nutrition?

    Would chewed up M&M's swilled down with half cups of coolish water from a big table of half cups be considered a "carb drink"?

    "Details of exactly how Sub2 science made Ayana’s world record and Bekele’s near-historic marathon possible are thin, but timely application of beverages—a recovery drink taken within 20 minutes of Ayana’s 10,000 meter tear, and a carbohydrate fluid Bekele took every 5K during the marathon—were mentioned."

    Perhaps the 2 hour marathon, a large many-mile stone, can be overturned faster with advanced engineering and mechanics.
    If they can develop hands that provide feedback why cannot we develop orthotics and prosthetics that run faster with greater stability and energy efficiency??
    http://newatlas.com/artificial-sense-control/46146/

    Should we search for the next elixir of the elites or develop new mechanical systems for the masses? And the planet.

    Foam is built on lossy impedance advanced composites on reactive impedance. Please do the math.

    A hui hou,
    Steve

    Would beer be considered a "carb drink" as well??
    Half cups of beer at all aid stations!

    Why run when you can walk.
    Why walk when you can sit.
    Why sit when you can lay down.
    Why pass out when you can pass out Gatorade?
    Good going Marines.
    But is that really Gatorade?

    https://www.army.mil/article/137169/Volunteers_help_MCM_run_smoothly
    [​IMG]
     
  39. Smoke and mirrors people. There was a guy 10 sec back drinking whatever whenever. Don't drink the cool aid.
     
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