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Is SALRE a "Single Axis Theory"

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by EdGlaser, Nov 18, 2010.

  1. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member


    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    Now I am asking: Is SALRE single axis or is that a Strawman argument?


    Dr. Kevin Kirby proposed a model of foot biomechanics called the SALRE Theroy standing for Subtalar Axis Location and Rotational Equilibrium.

    Dr. Edward Glaser calls this theory a Single Axis Theory lumping it in with Neutral Position Biomechanical Theroy of Dr. Merton Root. Especially since both theories rely on the same axis.

    Merton Root, DPM proposed Neutral Position Theory which teaches a corrected rotational position around the STJ Axis called Neutral Position.

    SALRE discusses an anatomical medial to lateral deviation of the position of the STJ axis near full pronation and concerns itself with the distribution of kinetic forces on either side of the axis (as it is projected on the transverse plane).

    The Skive is an invention of Dr. Kevin Kirby which is a way of adding additional tilt inside the heel cup in a way that avoids any change at all in the Medial Longitudinal Arch or foot posture.

    I contend that Neutral and SALRE are both single axis theories that revolve around the STJ Axis.

    Dr. Kirby calls that a "Strawman" argument.

    I present the following evidence from a previous thread.

    I responded:

    Kevin,

    You’re so cute when you’re angry.

    Hey, you don’t have to worry about my feelings, OK, because I don’t HAVE any. LOL

    Let’s address your STRAWMAN contention, because it is a fantasy.

    You ARE "single axis theories". The only people who don’t know that are the people who cannot find a cup of coffee in Seattle or Micky Mouse T shirts in Orlando, FL.

    Let’s LOOK at the DATA.

    Firstly your “theory” is called the: SUBTALAR AXIS Location and Rotational Equilibrium Theory. This axis may translate considerably but it is still a singular axis at any moment in time.

    Let’s examine the titles of your articles in no particular order:

    For fun, I did a ‘find’ on STJ and Subtalar in the first article. I think you deserve a world record: 433 mentions in one article…… WOW. Who would think you are married to the STJ axis? Why, You hardly mention it……you little strawman, you.

    Subtalar Joint Axis Location and Rotational Equilibrium Theory of Foot Function.
    Rotational Equilibrium Theory Across the Sutalar Joint Axis.
    The Subtalar Joint Axis Locator
    A Motion-Based Method for Location of the Subtalar Joint Axis in Cadaver Specimins
    Methods of Determination of Positional Variations in the Subtalar Joint Axis
    In Vivo Tests of an improved method for functional location of the Subtalar Joint Axis

    In Kevin Kirby’s article in Podiatry Today entitled: Emerging Concepts in Podiatric Biomechanics …….…. “Kirby proposed that the spatial location of the STJ axis had a significant mechanical effect on the function of the foot since its abnormal spatial location relative to the plantar foot significantly alters the magnitudes and direction of rotational forces (i.e. moments) acting across the STJ axis.”.

    What a surprise SALRE is the emerging concept here. I am a salesman? Look in the mirror.






    As for the rest of your babble. It is unprofessional, untrue, irrelevant, and it makes you look bad.

    Everyone can see that you are trying to divert attention away from the valid criticisms of SALRE and your entire paradigm because it is a very ugly paradigm, flawed, based on invalid assumptions with massive errors, inacurate and irrepeatable measurements and ends up in just an unscientific wild ass guess. To think doctors have the time these days to spend twenty years studying at the feet of the “God of Podiatry” to become the master of lumpy-bump placement is ludicrous.

    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=111657438887423

    You need to hand out Kool Aid with that fantasy. Doctors want an easy to understand, accurate, easy to perform, repeatable technology that gives their pateints a truly custom (shaped to match the foot) device that is cast in the correct posture and applies a full contact, more evenly distributed corrective force pattern through the gait cycle with a callibrated plastic leaf spring like orthoses.

    Prefabs can accomplish the lumpy bump, Mr. Potato-thotic approach. Look at Foot Levelers, The Good Feet Store and Dr. Scholls in Walmart.

    Strawman my foot…. LOL

    Ed


    Now I am asking: Is SALRE single axis or is that a Strawman argument?

    Just don't anger God.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 18, 2010
  2. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    My thoughts are this: anyone who refers to himself in the 3rd person = cock.
     
  3. Graham

    Graham RIP

    With no Balls!
     
  4. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    You must be referring to the Kirby quote above.....in his podiatry Today article.

    “Kirby proposed that the spatial location of the STJ axis had a significant mechanical effect on the function of the foot since its abnormal spatial location relative to the plantar foot significantly alters the magnitudes and direction of rotational forces (i.e. moments) acting across the STJ axis.”. By Kevin Kirby.

    I don't think anyone's sexual equipment is relevant to the discussion, even Kevin's, unless you are proposing an new single axis.

    Ed
     
  5. Ed what do you mean by single axis.

    Being the salesman that you are words can be twisted.

    If you mean that the Subtalar joint has only 1 axis well yes it does, same as Nester et al have discussed with the Midtarsal joint, what they showed is that the 1 midtarsal joint axis will move in relation to the x,y and z axis.

    But if you mean axis as in Nesters et al x,y and z axis, no it´s not a single axis theory and the same as Nester discussed for the midtarsal joint the Subtalar joint axis will be in different posistion in relation to the x,y and z axis.

    Thats my take on it.

    So depends on how your twisting your words to make yourself look better.
     
  6. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    I can see how, when someone insults your God, you have difficulty focusing on the actual question.
    Please, Put down your Jihadist swords and answer the question.

    Is SALRE single axis? If not what are the others?

    Ed
     
  7. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    No Ed, when writing in an academic manner such as you describe above it is fine. Thats called 'referencing'. Try reading some articles and you'll see what I mean.
     
  8. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    This is just an irrelevant distraction from the thread. If you think I am a cock....go ahead. Personal attack: Ignored.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2010
  9. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    I mean, is the Sutalar Axis Location and Equilibrium theory about the Subtalar Axis.
    We all know that Rotational Equilibrium is just simple Newtonian Physics. Isn.t what makes this theory Kevin’s the Subtalar Axis Location part?

    PERSONAL ATTACK: IGNORED

    IS THIS THEORY: SALRE about the STJ Axis or the MTJ Axis? Where in Kevin’s articles do you find it being about the MTJ axis of Nester? I see a clear predominance, when I read all of these articles that it is all about the STJ axis….. If the MTJ axis is involved, which is predominant? And why leave the MTJ axis out of the title. Your analysis would seem to contradict the Newsletter where Kevin describes his moment of epiphany.

    If that MTJ axis were correct, and it very well is, it is near parallel to the STJ axis. When you are performing your axial projection…..how do you know which axis you are rotating the foot around? What if they cross?

    PERSONAL ATTACK: IGNORED

    Thanks,
    Ed
     
  10. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    M. Weber,

    During this discussion, I will point out in Red the personal attacks so that they can be separated from the academic discussion. The paradigm shift I am proposing is from single axis theory to postural theory. I must first establish that SALRE and Neutral are single axis. The STJ axis. This is an obvious point to me.

    I believe that you did admit, "If you mean that the Subtalar joint has only 1 axis well yes it does".

    Now is that the STJ Axis that Kirby uses in his theory or NOT?

    If it is, then I am not making a "strawman" argument, am I?

    If we can all agree on this simple point we can build further on this.

    Ed
     
  11. Ed I used the MTJ x,y and z axis due to the fact that you brought it up in the last thread that got shut down to try and get you to see that the STJ axis moves during gait .

    Asfor the rest your not making any sense if the title of a paper is :my big toe.

    Do you think its about an ear or a big toe ?

    So nowhere did I say anything about the MTJ being involved, you asked if the STJ axis is a single axis theory I showed it depends.

    Since this is your subject maybe stick to the thread question.
     

  12. Ed

    Neutral is a position of a joint

    An axis is an imaginary line which is constantly changing to show where the axis would need to sit to have equilbrium between forces acting on joint.

    And whats posture of the STJ ?
     
  13. Having fun Ed?:D I think you are.

    Honest question. Are you here for a serious discussion, or just to have a barney and raise Craigs blood pressure (poor man)?

    Ok. I'll bite. I would not presume to speak for God as you rather facetiously call him (I presume the pointing out of your personal attacks on Kevin should be highlighted in the same way ;). So I'll cut from the paper you talk so much about. In the words of Kevin Kirby :-

    I'd have highlighted it more clearly but this forum does not support neon flashing signs or sky writing.

    Quid pro quo clarice.

    Is MASS a single position system which pumps out the same prescription (mass shell) for everybody regardless of pathology?

    If so,

    Why bother doing an assessment?

    Could MASS devices be as effectively prescribed by a 19 year old shop assistant with no biomechanical knowledge, but a days training in casting a foot in the MASS position?

    Robert
     
  14. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    I'm glad you cracked my code and understood the point I was trying to portray Ed. I most definately think you are.
     
  15. efuller

    efuller MVP

    Ed,

    Since you are so upset about personal attacks, I think we should apply this to your post as well. No, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to delete stuff from your post that is not relevant to your arguement.

    This question isn't really a straw man arguement question. However, the premise of the question is that applying the theory doesn't work because it is a single axis theory. What is your point about single axis?

    Even though multiple locations of the axis can be found, there is still going to be equilibrium about those axes. I think it is a good assumption that a patient can have a bundle of medially positioned axes and that another patient can have a bundle of laterally positioned axes. You can still predict the relative amount of moment from the location of center of pressure of ground reaction force and the average location of the STJ axis.

    Another area of your post that confuses me is your statement about how Root and SARLE use the same axis. What's your point? Root looks at position of the joint. SARLE looks at moments and stress in relation to the joint. These are different concepts that both use the STJ axis. Oh, by the way, the STJ is only a part of the whole tissue stress thing. You use the STJ when it applies and don't use it when it doesn't apply. SARLE explains posterior tibial dysfunction quite well, but doesn't explain 2nd met stress fractures as well as 2nd metarsal length and hence 2nd metatarsal load explains stress fractures.

    SARLE also explains why some people find MASS casted orthoses quite painful and other people don't. A high arched device (= MASS) will push up on the medial longitudenal arch. In some feet the medial longitudnal arch is lateral to the STJ axis and pushing up in the arch will not change the moment from ground reaction force enough to supinate the STJ and hence you get high pressure and pain without motion of the STJ.

    A couple of questions for you. Does a MASS casted orthotic hold the foot in the MASS position? If it does, how does it hold it there? How do you explain the success of MASS casting?

    Welcome back Ed,

    Eric
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2010
  16. Graham

    Graham RIP

    Eric,

    :good:
     
  17. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    Interesting question Robert. I think you'll find the answers here:

    http://www.foothillstherapeuticsmassage.com/art_sole_support.shtml
    Sole Supports orthotics are unique in the marketplace, designed by Dr. Edward Glaser, who was first a mechanical engineer and then a podiatrist

    A licensed massage therapist 'trained' in the MASS system :rolleyes:

    and

    http://www.mcwilliamstraining.com/services.html
    Mr. Williams is a Licensed athletic trainer for the record:
    Orthotics
    Will perform a functional foot assessment to determine if an orthotic would be in your best interest. If you need orthotics. I will cast your feet using Sole Supports systems. www.solesupports.com/PUBLICHOME.aspx
     
  18. Hey, not just a massage therapist! She's a reiki master as well. :D

    This is the thing with MASS. Its not the height of the orthotic which troubles me. Many of the ones I use, especially in kids, are around that position. Its the "one size fits all so no need to assess, diagnose or think" principle.

    Anyway. We digress. This is a thread about SALRE not MASS. The question was "is it a single axis theory". I don't really understand the point of question but the answer would seem clear from the quote I lifted from the paper. I await Ed's response.

    Another thread on MASS would be the place to examine Eric an my questions, but to be honest its just bloody dull now. Been done. To death. Ed puts his case, we ask questions (usually the same ones), he evades the questions, we push him to answer them, he won't, we get frustrated, he gets nasty, the debate breaks down then the thread gets closed.

    I'm never going to beleive that the same prescription works for EVERY condition (unless it can be shown, which it won't be) and Ed is never going to believe that any theory but his has any validity, or that anyone disagrees with him out of anything other than nepotism. No point any longer.

    However. The critique of SALRE does, perhaps, deserve to be examined.

    On which note, another thought occurs which I will throw out. Kevins best known work, and the one under discussion is Subtalar Joint Axis Location and Rotational Equilibrium. Note the "and". Whilst the SAL bit is relevant and clinically useful (IMO of course) its the RE bit which I think has had more impact RE gave us FEA. RE gave us the guts of tissue stress. RE gave us the continuum concept of FnHL. RE gave us the means to model ALL the joints in the foot.

    I think the RE bit is the really important aspect.
     
  19. Don Bursch

    Don Bursch Member

    Ed’s question to Kirby and his supporters is: do you confirm that SALRE theory is concerned only with moments about the STJ axis (defined as single at any one point in time OR a discrete bundle over multiple positions of the foot) in order to optimize functional orthotic intervention?
     
  20. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    Don,

    I suggest that you re read Eric's excellent response above. The re read it again.

    Your team never contributes an iota of information to this site that isn't related to your product, defending your product or just plain stirring the proverbial pot of s***, therefore I think it's high time we ALL collectively ignore you and the guy in the clown suit. Massage therapists are open to your flawed dogma though. :rolleyes:
     
  21. Graham

    Graham RIP

    Don,

    Nice question. I don't believe Ed ever asked this though?
     
  22. Don Bursch

    Don Bursch Member

    I confirmed with Ed that that is the question.
     
  23. No. Simple answer.

    I think there is a catagory error here. MASS is a "closed" theory. It states the best position and thus, what a clinician should do. SALRE is a more academic concept. There is no such thing as a SALRE orthotic. It is not a closed clinical protocol. Thus you will not find a SALRE clinician. Tissue stress, perhaps. Not salre. Thus the question seeks to pidgeon hole salre as a limiting model which it is not.

    It would be akin to asking a diabetic specialist if their assessment is just about 10g monofilament tests. It's a part of the whole, but not representative of the whole.

    And I'm not a "supporter of kirby" btw. I happen to agree with him on some things, I've disagreed on others. This is about scientific theory, not partisan politics.
     
  24. Do the MASS people beleive that the Subtalar joint does not have an axis or bundle of axis ?
     
  25. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    No question it moves a lot. In fact in my lecture I give one example of a person whom we approximate his STJ translation to be 33 degrees. But in every position or posture it is still the STJ axis.

    So you agree with me. It is not the axis of the knee or elbow but the STJ axis he is talking about here.

    It is still a single axis theory. You may have another theory on MTJ Location and Rotational Equilibrium…. That’s fine. But it is not part of SALRE. SALRE is uni-axial.


    Since this is your subject maybe stick to the thread question. [/QUOTE]
    In SALRE the axis is located and then forces are applied on either side. It is not about showing where the axis “would need to be”, rather where it supposedly IS and how that effects kinetic force distribution and how that kinetic force distribution should be addressed.

    There is no Posture around a singular axis. There are various positions around an axis but posture is a phenomenon of combining many relevant axes, each contributing to various degrees to a change in overall shape of the foot which can be considered relative to the ground or not.

    I have no idea what “MASS people believe”. I believe that there is an STJ axis and that it does translate and rotate. I also believe that it IS the axis of SALRE.

    Why do you have such a difficult time admitting this simple fact? What axis do you think SALRE is about? The Sacro-illiac, the hip, the distal interphalangeal axis of the left fourth finger?

    Ed
     
  26. What point are you trying to make ed?
     
  27. [/QUOTE]
    Ed I think it´s time for the point ......

    the title gives what SALRE is all about. And yes we have discussed in the last month the axis of the midtarsal joint.
     
  28. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    Firstly, it is not I that call him God. That was just a page I saved from facebook. I have no idea who posted it….just found it amusing.

    Your quote is irrelevant. The articles mentioned were off weight bearing cadaver studies which did show a “bundle of axes”. That is, there does exist some translation of the axis even in the open chain as the STJ rotates. Even more translation occurs as the foot rotates around the heel rocker and postural collapse occurs by Midstance. In my lecture I give one example where we can approximate a 33 degree translation with relation to the ground in just the sagital plane.

    Sure, there is as much or more sliding of the talus on the calcaneus as rotation, maybe more in the open chain.

    Regardless of translation, at any particular point in time, there is only one axis as described by Fick, Manter, Hicks and Root.

    My question is quite simple. Is Kevin Kirby talking about the STJ axis, this singular axis, in the SALRE theory?


    No MASS is quite individual for each person.
    The most important part of the assessment in MASS posture theory is the cast itself. This can also now be lofted into 3D with the G-laser, geometric Laser imaging system and compared with RCSP casts to draw conclusions about the effect of postural change on the tension in the plantar fasciae for example.

    Who can do it? That’s simply irrelevant to the question. Having a hard time staying on point. Side effect of the Kool Aid.

    I have no idea what you mean by a closed theory. It states a methodology of finding the most ideal posture for each foot based on it individual ranges of motion, flexibility and soft tissue compression. It is a geometric ideal, different for each foot.
    It is what we currently believe to be the ideal geometry to form a plastic calibrated spring to the bottom of the foot. A place to begin correction.

    SALRE is what it is: a Single Axis model of foot function and correction.

    Now that is a lame analogy. Why can’t you call it like it is. SALRE concerns itself with a Single Axis. Period!

    Ed
     
  29. Don Bursch

    Don Bursch Member

    I heard a lot of "should do" in the SALRE recommendations set forth this past weekend at Kevin's presentation. Any proponent of any intervention is not likely to say "whatever". Is Neutral Position theory and methodology "closed" because it stipulates a model of foot correction? Putting that label on MASS seems arbitrary and definitely pejorative. It certainly is not a done deal from my perspective. I'd say limiting ones focus to moments about the STJ axis is fairly constrictive. Which is the point of the criticism in the first place. One has a collapsed arch, for example, and SALRE is mostly concerned about the STJ axis corresponding to that collapse and where to start applying some offloading kinetic forces. Seems like giving up on the architecture of the foot, the most important potential for changing overall function of the foot IMO.

    So I think it is fair to categorize SALRE methodology as uniaxial in scope and application.
     
  30. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    Irrelevant Personal Attacks: IGNORED
    David……shame on you……what did you contribute to our biomechanical understanding in these posts? NOTHING……. When you go so off track it just makes you look dumb. Kool Aid overdose......call the WAAAAAAAAmbulance. Eric is next to answer.

    Ed
     
  31. Graham

    Graham RIP

    Shape/Architecture of the foot has been shown to have little or no correlation to foot function. I believe.
     
  32. Don Bursch

    Don Bursch Member

    That's news to me. Do you have a source on that?
     
  33. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    My first point is simply that SALRE is a single axis theory. Hence, any further discussion about SALRE as being single axis in NOT a strawman argument but simply a statement of fact.

    No one is denying the Newtonian Principle of Rotational Equilibrium. That belongs to Isaac Newton and is a physics law which means it applies to ALL axes. If there is no rotation around an axis or a constant velocity rotation then it is said to be in rotational equilibrium. That it applies to the STJ axis, I believe is implied within Newtonian Physics. It also applies to car tires and merry-go-rounds too. Wow, did I just come up with the car tire rotational equilibrium theory (which conveniently is not a single axis theory about car tires either) or the merry-go-round rotational equilibrium theory which no one is willing to admit is limited to revolution around the vertical pole at the center of the merry-go-round.


    Finally you admit: “……that both use the STJ axis.” Hooray!

    The tissue stress thing we will deal with later.

    When is it that Newtonian Physical laws don’t apply? If the model is correct, it should apply to all situations.


    I believe Craig Payne demonstrated that supination resistance is posturally dependant which means that by pushing up on the MLA and putting the foot into a more Supinated posture, the amount of force necessary to supinate the foot further or even hold the foot in this Supinated posture is considerably less. Hence, Dr. Wrobel referenced an article that showed that higher arched devices are more comfortable.

    No, MASS orthotics have a calibrated flexibility.
    It doesn’t.
    A greater vertical corrective force is possible when there is full contact between the orthotic and the foot especially when the force per unit area is more evenly distributed, full contact in the mass position dramatically decreases impact and shear forces and the pathologic motion is addressed before it happens instead of after.
    There are many other reasons, but these are a few good ones.

    Cheers,
    Ed
     
  34. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    Hooray!!! "the title gives what SALRE is all about."

    That was like pulling hen's teeth.

    Thank You,
    Ed
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2010
  35. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    Thank you,
    If there is no further disagreement. We can all agree that SALRE is Single Axis.

    Calling it single axis is NOT a strawman argument.

    We can now begin a thread talking about the relative importance of STJ axial motion.
    I have posted more than enough today.
    Tomorrow I have to fly to MI to lecture to a large podiatry group and I still have to pack my bags.
    I will be unable to post at all tomorrow because of the hectic schedule (I leave very early and finish the day very late) and I will be back in town on Saturday late afternoon and I have something planned with my goddess.
    You will all survive until Sunday.

    Ed
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2010
  36. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    The point here doesn't make me look dumb Ed, on the contrary it validates your entire paradigm as obtuse as your 'science'. Massage therapists offering your insoles, shoe store owners offering your insoles (rebranded under the CBAS name of course, wouldn't want to offend those podiatrist colleagues or the chiropractors).... of course when a duly licensed professional dispenses your device it becomes an entirely different animal altogether right? Please. Salesman. Resurrect the clown suit Ed, at least then we could respect you and your pseudo-science and sheeple.
     
  37. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    Persnal Attacks: IGNORED


    By avoiding the topic you make my job of answering so much easier.

    This is not a discussion of business practices. This is biomechanical theory class.

    Baseless personal attacking class is down the hall to the right, just past the loo.

    Sounds like an old Monty Python skit.

    "Oh, you came for an argument, this is head bashing, arguing is down the hall to the right." I love Monty Python.

    LOL
    Ed
     
  38. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    BAAAA HAHAHAHAH HAHAHA AHAHAHA! When I calm down I have to thank you Ed for the funniest irony of the decade; Ed Glaser, biomechanical theory class.

    From here on out your will forever be referred to as "MASSclown"!
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2010
  39. efuller

    efuller MVP

    Now this is a straw man argument. You are not stating what people who use SALRE do.


    Center of pressure of ground reaction force relative to the STJ axis creates a moment from ground reaction force regardless of posture. Can an orthosis change posture? How does it change posture?

    Is this quote from your post your definition of posture?
    "There are various positions around an axis but posture is a phenomenon of combining many relevant axes, each contributing to various degrees to a change in overall shape of the foot which can be considered relative to the ground or not."
    Why do you think posture is important?

    There is something else that I would like you to believe. The location of the STJ axis, yes that STJ axis, is a part of the tissue stress approach to biomechanics. It is by no means all that we use to design our orthotics. So what is your criticism of our use of the STJ axis?

    Eric
     
  40. EdGlaser

    EdGlaser Active Member

    Personal Attacks: IGNORED
    David,'
    Are you capable of writing anything but personal attacks?
    Do you have anything real to contribute?

    Guess not.......

    I am feeling bad for how you are embarrassing yourself.

    I know so many Chiropractors that ARE knowledgable in foot biomechanics.

    Anyone reading this: Please do not judge all Chiropractors by David Weidermeyer, DC, CPed. Most can carry on an intelligent conversation and keep the debate relevant. Dr. Stu Currie, for example is one of the most knowledgable people I know on the subject as is Dr. Alyson Evans and Dr. Leslie Trotter. I have met over the past 14 yrs. so many brilliant Chiros, who really understand foot biomechanics and body mechanics in general. Steven Pearle, DC at University of Bridgeport, Deeds Harrison, Scott Fonda........... there are way too many to mention.
     
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