Joint moments in forefoot vs rearfoot strike running

Critically evaluate them. I posed some questions to you Steven, you failed to answer them...

1) What are the limitations of carbon fibre when used as an orthotic material?
2) How important is it that energy stored in an insole is returned at the correct time and spatial location during gait?
3) How does the surface geometry of a piece of carbon fibre influence its load/ deformation characteristics?

Tell you what, I'm lecturing over in Belgium later this month on the evolution of orthotic therapy, attach some photographs of your orthotics, the ones you went for a run in the other day, and I'll include it in my lecture.

In fact, leave the questions for now, lets start by you posting up the photographs of the devices which show the design features in your patent which you claim you went running in the other day...

 

Steven:

There is a big difference between a private practice podiatrist who has a patent on some new device, contacts me privately, and then wants me to spend my valuable time helping him evaluate his product, but can't offer me any compensation for the time that would be required to perform these services for him............ and a podiatry student who has a question on a new idea of theirs.

I would have thought that our discussions on your product were private. But now, since you have now revealed the content of our discussions publicly, don't expect me to reply to you privately or help you in any way with your product from here on.

In fact, I'm now sorry I ever responded to you in the first place. I can see now that the time I spent reviewing your product was a complete waste of my time. I'll be sure to let others to know what has transpired here so they can form their own decisions. Perhaps the "gurus" know a trail leading to nowhere better than you do?

 

Steve,

When I was looking at you original post, I was thinking that you needed a consultant that understood center of pressure and how muscles alter center of pressure. I see now that you have not been able to figure this out for yourself and you are looking for free help. So, you are thinking about bringing a product to market. Do you have any investors yet. Why should the folks here on the arena help you earn some money, if you are not willing to share some of it.

My suggestion is to read the Hicks paper on muscle function. That will be very helpful in your figuring it out for yourself.

Although, I am very curious as to how the device works. Do you have a video of sagittal view of a step with the device?

Eric

 

Aloha Simon,
I apologize for not answering your previous questions I thought they were mostly rhetorical and mean spirited. I have compiled a list of all of your questions and will try to answer them now. Could you please answer mine as well, quid quo pro?

Here's a question: what are the limitations of carbon fibre when used as an orthotic material? Ans- vague question, we try not to keep it directly against the skin unless it has a top coating of some nature, cabon fiber can wear out and break a majority of its fibers causing spring failure.

Here's another: how important is it that energy stored in an insole is returned at the correct time and spatial location during gait? Ans- very important. Those of us who have read Dr. Nigg’s new book know that now.

How does the surface geometry of a piece of carbon fibre influence its load/ deformation characteristics? Ans- It affects the contact surface of the foot and the weight distribution of the load.
Why? To paraphrase my own mentor recently- fastest over which distance? And why? Ans- Over all distances because the physics of energy conservation.

What is it that you are a Dr of? Marketing? Ans- Doctor of Podiatric Medicine and Surgery from the William M. Scholl College of Podiatric Medine 1996. Pedorthist from Northwestern University Medical School 1996. I have never taken a marketing class.

Again, this statement does not put right the erroneous statement that you made previously that composites store more energy than foams. Can you support your previous contention? Is "foam is foam" your best response? Ans- As stated in the Spring Orthotic Device Patent on pages 6-7 table one the modulas of elasticity vs. density shows that carbon fiber has a modulas of elasticity of 221 GPa and blown foam/rubber is 0.03 GPa.

Why should the hardest surfaces be the fastest? Ans- Darren up at U. of Calgary has hypothecated it.

Why should the hardest surfaces be the fastest? Ans- No Foam to absorb energy.
Hint: what happens to the leg stiffness (kleg) as surface stiffness (Ksurf) changes? Ans- It stiffens as contact stiffens using more energy to midigate the shock through muscle tuning.

Are you just guessing or are you approaching this subject from an educated point of view? Ans- Not guessing but I have asked you my learned and educated colleagues to assist with the vetting since we do not have all the answers or questions yet.

What is it that you are are trying to sell? Ans- Nothing is for sale, yet.

What was it you were selling again? Ans- Nothing is for sale, yet.

What is it that makes your's different, other than the poxy tag lines? Ans- The Novel use of Simple machines to enhance gait. Rise Above Stay Kingetic…TM

Have you actually manufactured one of these devices yet, Steven? Ans- Yes. They are not for sale, yet.

Where is the clinical evidence to support any of your claims Dr. King? Ans- A 10 man study was completed for the patent. A one man study was also done by Northwest Biomechanical Labs. A DoD SBIR A11-109 study is currently underway.

Where can I buy one of these wonders? Ans- They are not for sale, yet.

Orthotics [sic] that are fast... whatever next? Ans- Yes fast and efficient. These may be your next shoes or rubber slippers may be whatever you choose.

Do they work? Ans- Yes good enough to run 3 Maui Marathons, 3 XTerra championships and play USTA league tennis and UPA sanctioned Ultimate Frisbee.

I don't know I haven't caught it yet. Now, I'm guessing I could easily make an orthotic device which is lighter than that envisaged in the patent and how are we measuring safe, by the way? "That orthotic is safe, dude. I just scored an 1/8 off it." Ans- Spring Orthotic Device patent page 12 figure 3. It is a summation of fast-light-safe. You can wear a pair of Crocs or Nike Frees that are lighter but are they safer and faster? Testing standards for safety are found in ASTM 2412-05 testing protocols.

You're a doctor? Ans- Yes my diploma from SCPM and state of Hawaii license says so.

Seriously, you're a doctor? Ans- Yes seriously I am a doctor and a pedorthist.

Of what? Tm Ans- I am a doctor of Podiatric Medicine and Surgery.

Can you evidence any of that? Ans-Yes my diploma and license are evidence.

Rhetoric question. Of course you can't. You are full of sh!t. And you are a doctor of what exactly? Ans- A doctor of Podiatric Medicine and Surgery.

Need we continue with these trade marked tag lines? Ans- Yes they are fun to create.

Kingetics- you are fooking joking... right Dude? Tm Ans- No joke but completing lot fun runs and hikes.

How many soldiers have you made safer, Steven? Ans- None yet apart from myself a prior US Army officer in the Medical Service Corps who treated many soldiers with unsafe conditions.
Your insoles have not even been tested by the military have they, Steven? Ans- Phase 1 SBIR A11-109 is currently being completed for the US department of Defense and the Army’s Medial Research and Materials Command.

Offensive, you are. Your insoles only exist on a piece of paper, don't they Steven? Ans- They have both offensive and defensive capabilities. They exist in our testing labs and on my feet today while I type answers to all your important questions.

For anyone following- go back and count the number of questions Steven has been asked. Now count the number he has answered. The first is very simple- what are you a doctor of Steven? Ans- Too many to count Simon. I am a doctor of Podiatric Medicine and Surgery.

How many soldiers you made safer? Ans- None Yet other than myself.
How do you know you orthotic is the fastest? Ans- Physics!

Where is that photograph of one of your orthoses? Ans- No photo’s please make your own pair.

So, the question arises, why would we want this device? Ans- To make the less ambled The More Ambled.

Wouldn't this seem to make sense since if you could add some extra propulsive energy into each step then wouldn't you tend to progress at ever increasing velocity until you reached the seed of light? Ans- No my mass would increase too much to ever reach those speeds.

Is the front end of the plate fixed? What is it fixed to? Does it move? Ans- The components can be "bonded" but not at both contact points, it causes a "warple = warped ripple" in the spring. The contacts points on my 6 mile run this morning along the Kealia Wildlife Refuge were unbonded but mechanically attached.

The ratio between what and what? Ans- The ratio of rearfoot to forefoot distance from the spring pivot.

Perhaps the "gurus" know a trail leading to nowhere better than you do? Ans- Yes Kevin perhaps you are correct. I am sorry to have wasted your time and brain power. I was just looking for someone who could engage in a serious discussion on this important and needed technology.

Do you have a video of sagittal view of a step with the device? Ans- Yes but I was unable to upload it to this website. If you have an open mind for this I will be happy to email it to you, Eric. We do not have the funding yet to pay for your expertise.

You really are an idiot. And making it up as you go along. Next... How old are you? Twelve or thirteen? Ans- My mother was watching the first man walk on the moon the day before I was born. Idiot? Yes i am. I should be taking the vetting of this elsewhere.

Now Simon for my questions, please.
How much energy in Joules is stored and produced in the forefoot?
ie how much energy do the long flexors and short flexors provide for stabilization and propulsion at toe off?

How can we improve that?
Should we?
How many joules are released in Jerome Singleton's composite prosthesis at "toe off"?

1. Why no mention of advanced composites in Dr. Nigg's new book?
2. How can you lead if you are always looking in the Rearview Mirror of what has been done in the past?
Well i guess i should not be looking for any future referrals from you anytime too soon then ey?
1.How many joules are produced in the forefoot from the long flexors?
2. Should we try to enhance that?
3. Why is there a elevated heel on a cowgirl's boot?

At age 38 I did not want to permanently give up high energy sports and the fitness that comes with competition, a Jones Fracture can do that.So what to do?
What if we use an external simple machine say the spring orthotic device to lever the rearfoot off the ground what is causing the lift?
Is it the energy stored in the composite plate or the cantilever of the rigid craddle over a plantar pivot?
When prior students of biomechanics come forward with new idea's to solve some of the problems we face everyday what do we do? What should we do?

Mahalo,
Steve

 

Why is it that the podiatrists who have come onto Podiatry Arena with their sole agenda being to market their product, are always the ones to get the most upset when others don't love their product as much as they do and then go on, ad nauseum, getting into nonsensical arguments with anyone and everyone who doesn't agree with them?

The list just continues to grow longer every year.....!:hammer::craig::butcher:

 

I have neither the time nor the inclination to go through all of the responses you gave, Steven.

The amount of energy stored in the forefoot will vary between individuals and within individuals and will be highly task dependent. As I stated in the previous thread:

Thus the amount of energy stored in either the forefoot or long flexors will be dependent upon stiffness and displacements. The only real way to measure energy storage within the tendons should be to insert strain gauges. I am not aware of any studies which have attempted to do this in-vivo.

You can improve it by either increasing the displacement and/ or the compliance of the tissues. Whether or not we should depends on whether the demands of extra energy storage within the tissue induces pathology, which is a possibility.

I have no idea.

If by "advanced composites" you mean carbon fibre, then there is mention of it in "Dr Nigg's new book". See page 234, I'm sure there are other direct and indirect references to it within the book, but I guide you to that page and chapter for good reason. You'd do well to not only read it, but to understand the contents of that chapter.

I assume this is an attempt at some kind of straw man argument. Who do you perceive is "looking in the rearview mirror"?

No.

Already answered that. But for the record the metatarsophalangeal joints are power absorbers, that is they loose energy rather than producing it. Again, if you read p.234 of Nigg's new book, you'll see that.

The history of the heel on shoes is documented well by Cameron Kippen. You can read a little here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel_(shoe)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-heeled_footwear

I guess there are many reasons for the elevated heel on a cowgirls shoe: to make them taller, to elongate the leg, to make the foot appear shorter, to exaggerate the breasts and buttocks, to place the foot in position similar to that which it adopts during orgasm, to give them something to fasten their spurs to etc etc.

You really need to read and understand the concepts of energy storage and return in footwear and orthoses. Read "Nigg's new book".

I've now spent more than enough of my time on this with you.

Keep burning your bridges and alienating people, Steven.

 

He claims he doesn't have a photograph, let alone a video, Eric. Why can't he just take the orthoses out of his shoes take a few snaps with a camera and upload the images here?

Is it because these devices exist only on paper?:drinks

 

What does unbonded but mechanically attached mean?



I still don't see how a biased cantilever will lift the heel faster regardless of the ratio.

Eric

 

Mahalo Eric,

Mechanically bonded means touching but not nessesarily fixed (or glued) together. This was important for us to add to the patent to imply we can do both.

The cantilever will not lift the heel faster or slower the amount of lift will be predicated on the ratio of the rearfoot to forefoot distance from the plantar pivot. Here is the equation for the lever from the patent. F1×D1=F2×D2

This system allows us to deepen our use of the physical sciences in our orthotic presriptions. We can adjust for a patients weight now by changing the properties/thickness of the spring plate and pivot locations.

In the back of everyones's mind is "What is in it for me? How do i make money on this?"
I don't know yet. If the brightest minds in our profession are having a difficult time with this how will others handle it? Should they be allowed to?


Thank you for your engagement and honest science.
Steve

Kingetics- Kicking Cripplism...TM
**My most awsome nurse Sheri's favorite...**

 

Anyone else find this little "trade-marked" tag from Steven King offensive, or is it just me?

You might want to think these through, Steven.

Kingetics- burning bridges and alienating people like its going out of fashion...TM

 

Weight = mass x acceleration due to gravity

But acceleration during dynamic function can be lower or higher than body weight depending on the task and the time during the task, so how do you "adjust" for F = ma?

The honest answer = you don't. I'm reminded of Ed Glazer.:morning:

Those photographs.....?

Anyway, can we split this off into another thread please Craig as it has naff all to do with joint moments in forefoot strike running anymore.:bang:

 

So, when the heel hits the ground what happens to the front end of the device relative to the shoe? Specifically, in the ones that you wear.

That is the equation when there is equilibrium, ie no acceeration.

The only reason that I'm having a difficult time with it is that there is a vague description of what it is. Bonded, unbonded, that's two entirely different situations. I'm trying to figure a way to put this nicely. If you don't know how it works you should not be making claims about its benefits, unless you have some data showing that it does what you claim that it does.

Eric

 

Mahalo,

Great questions!

Simon we can make different spring sets for different activities,,ie curling, running, walking, ultimate frisbee, tennis, etc... For instance my marathon training and running set had a stiffer or higher modulas of elasticity than my office pair. Sorry, i will not publish the photo's on an open web site, build your own pair which i have described in previous threads. Use a simple Powerstep and an Otto Bock spring plate and fashion some pivots out of high shore EVA or recycled bike tires.

Eric the front end of the device acts as a counter weight to the rearfoot at heel contact. When the foot goes into midstance more weight is applied to the forefoot which will assist with heel lift due to the use of the lever. All four simple machines function in a closed kinetic chain,,they do affect each other.
Bonded vs unbonded- they are touching each other either way. The shoe housing holds the foot to the orthotic to sole.
Knowing how something works is different than knowing how to describe how it works especially if it is something new that no one has described before. If the vinacular is incorrect please correct me/us.
One way to process this is to imagine the device on one of Arthur Kuo's robots at U. of Michigan. How can we reduce negitive work in the system? We believe that we take impact impulse and convert it into propulsion impulse at the right time and place. That has not been done very well before with spring or foam shoes. Simple machines make this possible. Who has ever heard orthotic science use simple machine physics before?
Simon you state there are a plenty of Snake oil salesmen on this site pushing their innovations could you list them for me?

Craig i agree with Simon could we start two new threads so we can leave Kevin in peace.
1. Advanced Composite Materials Orthotic Applications
2. Simple Machine Orthotic Systems

Mahalo,
Steve
Kingetics- Building the Force to Accelerate Your Mass...TM

 

There's your problem. The heel has to lift to get more weight on the forefoot. This simple machine functions the same as placing a dowel transversely across the bottom of the shoe. When the center of pressure of the foot moves anterior to the dowel the rigid shoe will rock over the dowel and heel will lift. The problem is that the Achilles tendon tension is needed to get the center of pressure in front of the rocker. The foot is driving the machine and not vice versa.

Eric

 

Mahalo Eric,

I know your possition is to find errors and problems.
My possition is to facilitate the science of why it works.
I am telling the Truth, it works.

This machine does not function the same a a dowel over a rigid shoe. I have build those and they are very clunky. Just try on a Darco Orthowedge Post Op Shoe. The excurtion distance of the pivots help smooth out the energy transfer and lift of the heel by the spring plate. Remember there is a spring plate that is compressable that holds over 90 pounds of lift (patent version) under the heel. How much help does the heel need? How much does it get from foam? Tne achilles tension really arises when the forefoot spring is overly strong (high K factor, Young's Modulas) that is why this systems optimization occures with the strength of the Long Lever- 4th simple machine.

A Hui Hou,
Steve

Kingetics-Redshifting Shoes...TM

 

Why not? You have a patent to protect your invention. I put it to you that you cannot take photographs because they do not exist.

 

Stephen

You quite often say that you cannot describe the mechanism but you know it 'works'.
I'm still not quite sure what 'works' is defined as, what is the intended effect of your spring orthotic device?

When the device is compared to barefoot or shod with no spring device and at a given forward velocity, Is it:

To increase performance during a given activity
To reduce injury potential

Within these two categories does it:

Aid activity by increasing propulsive force at the right time?
Reduce tension in the Achilles tendon or the muscle units?
Attenuate the force time curve during braking phase?
Reduce saggital plane progression perturbation?
Reduce mechanical energy output?
Reduce metabolic energy output?
Something else?

Many of the applications you mention are not typical heel to forefoot progression, How does this device work when the activity is mainly on the forefoot or a runner is a forefoot striker or the progression is not forward?

Regards Dave Smith

 

Aloha Dave,

The intended effect is greater patient safety and ambulation efficiency and stability by creating an orthotic that does not rely on blown deforming foams to mitigate shock and protect from puncture.

Within these two categories does it:

Aid activity by increasing propulsive force at the right time? ans- Yes, instead of loosing energy at MTP joints we leverage bend a composite spring plate.

Reduce tension in the Achilles tendon or the muscle units? Yes- EMG studies are underway

Attenuate the force time curve during braking phase? Yes- Flat top graph of FSCAN force vs. time curve with a significant reduction of impact spike

Reduce saggital plane progression perturbation? Restate question a different way please?

Reduce mechanical energy output? No- WE would like to increase mechanical energy output. Evidenced by the fact we can crush lava rocks under the forefoot while wearing wrestling shoes with the orthotic inside. As well as observing depth patterns of sand walking on our Maui beaches,, i don't own a force plate,,that testing is underway

Reduce metabolic energy output? VCO2 testing underway

Something else? Decrease sway of COM during gait and double limb support. Exceed ASTM 2412-05 safety standards for puncture, fire, electrical conductivity.
Decrease forefoot pressure and shearing forces to limit ulcerative lesions **Prime Objective**
To reduce loading rates to decrease stress fractures **Military Objective**
The orthotic can be constructed to match or influence the footstrike pattern of runners by adjusting the pivot heights and locations. The device does not rely on blown foam therefore inversion and eversion orthotic corrections are not lost by foam deformation.

Kind Regards,
Steve

Kingetics- Denying Defeetism...TM ie diabetic complications

I believe this may be a solution to the big problem we are currently facing and that you wisely recognized.

"I am concerened about the future of podiatric biomechanics.
For quite a few years I have been reading Jiscmail Podiatry and Podiatry Areana and in all that time Kevin Kirby et al have proposed seeking and achieving the goal of a firm scientific structure and basis to the principles of clinical biomechanics. At first this seemed very academic to me as the techniques used to treat patients seemed to work very well and the theory seemed sound enough. With further education and reading the discussions on the topic I can now see the importance of establishing sound scientific theories to underpin the use of orthoses for the treatment of biomechanical dysfunction or trauma.
What made me sit up and think about this today was an advert for Podiatech, orthotic in clinic thermo moulding system, with the slogan "The angle of the dangle days are over". Obviously some seriously doubt the validity of the Root STJ neutral theory and meauring foot angles and positions as has been highlighted by recent discussions. Is the tide of opinion turning and and are we being too slow to evolve for the future. If too many learned and well known podiatrists and establishments insist on sticking with the Dogma of Root is the only model Kevin Kirby, Craig Payne, DanenBurgh, Eric Fuller et al will be figthing a difficult battle. Am I being to dramatic? I think not."

 

Keep ignoring Dr King, yet the reason you cannot post photographs of your orthoses here is because they don't exist.

 

Simon:

Who cares?! Just another "fishing expedition" of someone wanting free advice so they can make more money on the free advice....

 

Aloha,

Kevin i am sorry you think that way.

If i had listened to your "free" advice i would have given up on this.

I think our patients need better than what the current science and market offers.

You are one of the smartest doctors i know and it was hard not to listen to your advice.

So Soory Simon,,,make your own pair.

Mahalo,
Steve

Kingetics- Liking Water We Flow...TM

 

Dear Stephen

For what its worth, here are some of my thought on your spring orthotic device.

I been reading thru the patent papers and the definition and description of your spring orthotic device. There is a lot of statement about expectations of the device action but not any real mechanical description defining how it will work and some of the incomplete explanations appear to be somewhat optimistic.

My first post regarding the increase in velocity until the speeed of light is reached was a little tongue in cheek but kind of put over my first thoughts about the device i.e. you expect to get more out than you put in.

When you stated a few times that the braking force is attenuated and were excited about the F Scan showing flat top braking curve and a block in the progression of the forward velocity, i.e. saggital plane progression perturbation, This indicated to me that your device does exactly what you say i.e. it reduces forward velocity of the CoM relative to or when compared to a normal or optimal heel pivot action.

This would be expected by examining the design of the spring orthotic. However, in your diagrams you have optimistically indicated where the increased propulsion and shock attenuation would come from but neglected to show the opposite actions that retard the forward progression before the increased propulsion and this is partly due to the increased shock attenuation action but also due to the fact that the spring plate will incline in the forefoot as the heel deforms and so will dorsiflex the forefoot and retard its plantarflexion so causing a moment to act against the forward rotation of the CoM over the planted foot, this action might be similar to a negative heel on an orthopaedic shoe that is designed to help stop knee flexion during braking when the knee extensors are weak for some reason.

Again as you predict the action as the foot and CoM progress over the ventral pivot is to increase propulsion i.e. increase the velocity of the CoM, however the velocity of the CoM is starting from a lower speed than it would without the spring orthotic and so, even tho the effect is a feeling of acceleration at this point, the overall or mean velocity remains unchanged.

Your diagrams also appear to show a starting heel lift height that is lower than the finish heel lift height at the propulsive phase. This difference is important since if the heel finishes high then it must also start just as high. If it starts high then as it deforms under body weight then the forefoot foot will also pivot higher and further dorsiflex the forefoot and ankle and impede saggital plane progression even more.

The apparently higher heel height at propulsion gives the impression that there is more propulsion available here but unfortunately this is not true since there is always a positive - negative velocity balance around a baseline constant velocity. If this were not so then adding heel lifts would be like running down hill constantly and this, as I stated previously would result in the wearers progression becoming getting faster and faster until their velocity approached the speed of light. (at least according to the theories of Einstein but he may be wrong yet)

I would predict therefore that performance would not be enhanced and even tho there may be some benefits to be gained from this device by some specific pathologies the opposite of that is that changes in muscle action to accommodate the large excursions or variations in CoM velocity might very well result in increased strain and injury to certain tissues.

It also appears to me that the very small range of action allowed in the deformation and recoil of your spring device combined with the relative stiffness and recovery rate may well be detrimental to tissue stress levels in terms of the frequency and amplitude of the energy return when compared to the frequency and amplitude of the CoM oscillation. This might well explain why manufacturers such as Nike, Asics, Adidas etc like to use a less stiff material with a lower frequency return i.e. EVA and other plastic foams of spring systems, since they more closely match the optimal energy return frequency and amplitude required by a runner. I believe Simon Spooner has been investigating this field for some time and this may be why he is so sceptical about your claims of the effectiveness of the REAL orthoses that you claim you have made and use.

Regards dave smith

 

Mahalo Dave,

Thank you for spending some time thinking about this.

We do not expect to harness more energy out of the system than what is put in, that is currently impossible in the macro world I cannot speak for the sub atomic and string theory worlds.

Arthur Kuo has written that the negative work in the system is the result of impact in his paper, The six determinants of gait and the inverted pendulum analogy: A dynamic walking perspective, http://www-personal.umich.edu/~artkuo/Papers/

We believe that this is true for us humans as well. An orthotic system that can decrease the negative work is a key to gait efficiency

Both pivots in the patent have a radius of 10mm. This will keep the foot parallel to the floor and not create a negative heel. We can make the cradle pivot with a smaller radius than the spring pivot and create a negative heel if we wish to do so. We can also make the cradle pivot with a larger radius than the spring pivot and create a high heel relative to the ground.

The benefit of using a spring system is to limit destructive resonance. Mechanical springs are used on our cars to give you a smooth ride they don’t use foam except for under your okole.

Nike uses foam because the can make a shoe for $3.68 and sell them for $110. That is why a past Vice President over there told me, “ I see absolutely no market for this invention.” Right after he bent in half a ¼ inch lag bolt sticking through a 2x4 piece of wood while wearing our orthotics inside Chuck Talor Converse All Stars…???

Best thing to do is make a desk top sample with a piece of semi-flexible plastic or cardboard to act as the spring and an existing ¾ length orthotic with attached protruding pivots. Rock it back and forth to see the mechanical action. Change the pivot heights and position to see what effect that causes.

How long have we wished to make a full length orthotic that had an affect past the MTP Joints?

A Hui Hou,
Steve

Kingetics- Strengthening Out Your Strides…TM

 

Steve I've used sprung shoes or boots, and I found that they don't make running easier or more efficient just different and fun and bouncy but being more bouncy and fun doesn't equal better or faster forward motion.

Dave

 

Mahalo Gentlemen,

You have all taught me a very important and somewhat painful lesson.

Teaching Teachers is Tough.

Enjoy your plastifoam shoes.

A Hui Hou,
Dr. Steven A. King
Inventor Spring Orthotic Device

Kingetics- Making Our Soldiers Safer One Step at a Time...TM

Don't get Weft behind its Warp Speed ahead with Kingetics Advanced Composites...TM

 

OK Stephen I'm surprised, so put your toys back in the pram

I made a prototype and it felt quite bouncy and comfortable and did not appear to retard the forward velocity. I used a 2mm carbon fibre bottom plate and a polyprop orthotic shell as the top plate and used 10mm 50 shore EVA heel and ventral pivots with a square cross section. The bottom plate was 225mm long and the ventral pivot set at 80mm from posterior aspect and the heel pivot set at 40mm from the posterior aspect. (see pics).

In the pics you will see what I was talking about as the front end rises as the back end is loaded and the front end rises even more as the heel is fully loaded. However when fitted inthe shoe this lift appears to be insignificant, probably because the stiffness of the carbon fibre plate is relatively low and is easily compliant to the forefoot force as it plantarflexes. Also the eva is a bit too compliant and a a more rigid pivot might change the feel.

Compared to bare foot it feels more propulsive but compared to wearing my Sketchers shape ups they feel different i.e. bouncy in the heel but not more propulsive. Sketchers and the spring orthotic together don't feel any better or worse than each on its own.





Making further investigations with stiffer components

Dave

 

Nice biscuit tin, Dave.

Here's a photograph of some devices I made up a couple of years ago based on McMahons patent. The wave springs were calibrated so that the devices have a stiffness within the magic zone for me. You could calibrate left and right differently for limb length discrepancies and any other variations in Kleg. If you were clever you could 3D print it all as one unit, but I just phoned a company that makes wave springs and told them my requirements. Phil Wells milled the shells for me.

 

I think these orthotics are better.

 

The wise fisherman, when casting out his line in the hopes of catching fish, doesn't blame the fish when he catches none. Rather, he thinks that maybe the lure wasn't quite good enough to get a bite. Maybe the reason all the teachers aren't biting is that the lure isn't quite good enough.

Kirbymatics....using science and reason to dispel and disprove the marketing claims of fortune-seeking individuals and their hair-brain ideas....TM

 

Yes I had to eat all the biscuits so I could put me tools in the tin, hard life eh!

Have you got a patent? Can I have some?

Dave

 

Think of it as open-source design. Knock yourself out.

Out of interest- at rest, what was the height from the supporting surface to the superior surface of the device you made, in an unloaded state at the level of the heel cup?

 

With the base plate parallel to the supporting surface - approx 25mm

Dave

 

Won't be able to fit it into my court shoes then, which I do like to wear on a Friday night. What about if you rock it forward?

 

OOooh! I like to rock it forward

38mm but when weight bearing and compressed it fits in my Sketchers surprisingly easily and I just tried it in a customers trainer (right one) (he'd torn an achilles tendon) and he went for a spin up the road (with 15mm of heel lift in the other shoe (left one) and thought it felt pretty good.

Dave

 

Just curious, has anyone asked

WHY?

 

Aloha David W,

I pray this is Why enough.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/04/AR2011030403258.html

Or this.

1. Kenton R. Kaufman PhD, Stephanie Brodine MD, and Richard Shaffer PhD. Military training-related injuries: Surveillance, research, and prevention. American Journal of Preventive Medicine. Volume 18, Issue 3, Supplement 1, April 2000, Pages 54-63.

2. Hinz P, Henningsen A, Matthes G, Jäger B, Ekkernkamp A, Rosenbaum D. Analysis of pressure distribution below the metatarsals with different insoles in combat boots of the German Army for prevention of march fractures. Gait Posture. 2008 Apr;27(3):535-8.

3. Williams, Karen M. ; Brodine, S. K. ; Shaffer, R. A. ; Hagy, J. ; Kaufman, K. NAVAL HEALTH RESEARCH CENTER SAN DIEGO CA. Biomechanical Properties of Infantry Combat Boot Development. National technical Information Service, US department of Commerce, 1997.

4. 2000: Stefanyshyn D J; Nigg B M, Energy aspects associated with sport shoes.

Sportverletzung Sportschaden : Organ der Gesellschaft für Orthopädisch-Traumatologische Sportmedizin 2000;14(3):82-9.

KEYWORDS: Combat Boots, Advanced Composite Materials, Injury Risk, Energy Return, Biomechanics, Stress Fractures

Mahalo,
Steve

The most under of our underwear are the boots under our feet.

 

Steve,

I am not attempting to be flip where our soldiers well-being is concerned, let me state that first. As altruistic as it you infer your project is, how is a combat boot or any addition going to reduce injuries or worse if they step on a mine or an IED explodes in their proximity?

The article that you referenced is about casualties, not improving gait and reducing overuse injury. These are not even similar goals Steve. Explain please, the floor is yours.


Weedergetics: Identifying weapons of mass deception, exposing knackered critical thought processes, irrational claims, narcissism and behavior consistent with wall street on a more diminutive scale.

 

Aloha David W,

Thank you for your concern for our soldiers, they deserve it.

Many casualties with IED's are not just from the metal fragments from these evil devices entering the body. Your critical thinking will allow your thought process to expose that the dirt and debris on top of the IED will enter into our soldiers. This creates a very dirty wound. Just ask any surgeon how nasty dirty wounds can be.

The mechanics of our innovation are a fortunate addendum to its puncture and protrusion resistance. How much resistance does PU or EVA foam give. If you don't know go check the patent Spring Orthotic Device, there is a very nice table for you to advance what is really true and to dispel the assumption that there is no hope for advancement.

I also need to correct my prior comment that the past Nike executive stepped on and bent a 1/4 inch lag bolt. It was only 3/8 inch in diameter. The current bolt is 1/4 inch. I did not want to continue replacing lag bolts.

Mahalo,
Steve

Kingetics-Advancing the Goliath Deception of Safe Shoes...TM

 

Honestly, Steve, how much protection to a soldier's testicles do you think any in-shoe device will give a soldier in any explosion that has sufficient explosive force to basically blow a foot off of a leg?

Kirbygetics-Questioning Bogus Claims for Over a Quarter Century...TM

 

Exactly Kevin.

Steve we just do not "get' the premise nor the necessity. Also PU and EVA don't become projectile fragments. Carbon fiber would cause a nasty, dirty wound embedded in the soft tissue.

So again, what is the purpose of your device for the military? In one sentence you claim to seek to improve blast resistance and in the next you claim to seek to reduce overuse injury?

Keep in mind, ultimately taxpayers will be paying for your little miracle so I'd appreciate a straight answer since steel shanks cost a whole lot less.

Weedgetics: Defending the taxpayers from shelling out hard earn cashed earmarked for lining the pockets of companies with silly ideas - TM