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Lateline: Chiropractors defend practices

Discussion in 'General Issues and Discussion Forum' started by LuckyLisfranc, Jul 7, 2009.

  1. LuckyLisfranc

    LuckyLisfranc Well-Known Member

    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    Interesting discussion on the chiropractic profession last night on ABC Lateline.

    Here is an excerpt:

    Full transcript here.
  2. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    I have been following this case with Singh. It was mentioned in this thread.
  3. MrBen

    MrBen Active Member

    anyone else notice parallels between the history of chiropractics and that of scientology?
    might just be me
  4. Atlas

    Atlas Well-Known Member

    Lets not forget that Chiropractors do solid work to attain their degree. 5 or 6 years of undergrad for memory. Compare that to some pods who have done 3 years; and some of them wear a white coat and call themselves "doctor". Might as well wear a stethoscope that has a knot in it.

    Every profession has real gems; and every profession has pretenders that talk-the-talk. Most health professions are not homogenous products.
    The thing that drags down anyone in a certain profession is dogma. Dogmatic one-trick-ponies have one solution for most presentations. When you have the same solution, why bother assessing at all?

    Why do some "sell" 5mm polyprop devices to all patients, including little old ladies with a plethora of bony prominences and no plantar fat? Little wonder they don't comply.

    Why do some "sell" carbon fibre as the superior orthotic material that makes their colleagues who use poly or EVA as 19th century?

    Why do some "sell" EVA as the only option?

    Why is core stability the panacea for everything?

    Why do some automatically mention shoe brands because they have "good support". What is good support? A shoe salesman can come up with that in the first 5 minutes of training. It is harder to recognise that shoes have multiple components.

    Why do some say its all spinal in origin?

    And the list goes on and on and on in health.

    The saying "horses for courses" is old, but not anachronistic for modern medicine. Lateline should look at every profession, because rhetoric exists throughout.

    The ability to assess thoroughly; the ability to differentiate similar (on the surface) presentations; the ability to possess plan b and c, if "a" fails; the ability to recognise early, when you can't help a condition; the guts to say to a patient "I actually don't know what is going on here (rather than the typical technical hyperbole some regurgitate to appease and convince the patient).....such packages are rare as hen's teeth.

    Chiropractors cop it...and some deserve it. But I wouldn't mind the manual therapy skills of some of them.

    Physiotherapist (Masters) & Podiatrist
  5. Dananberg

    Dananberg Active Member

    Quite some time ago, I read a chiropractic study about colic in babies. They measured crying in hours/day, pre- and post- manipulation. If I remember correctly, there was a 90% reduction in crying within 48 hours.

    Always made sense to me....how else would an infant describe back or neck pain?

    There is a place for manipulation in the care of many ailments....just as long as the practitioners are careful and recognize the limits of their protocols...it seems very protectionist to argue against.

  6. Michael David

    Michael David Welcome New Poster

    Chiropractic shares its roots with Osteopathy and both have an enviable record of treating musculoskeletal conditions. However, there is more to both professions than just backaches and treating a visceral problem using modified techniques has proven beneficial to many patients. It is a non-invasive therapy, gentle (usually) and effective. The relationships between viscera and musculoskeletal structures may not seem obvious to the un-initiated, but they are there if anyone wants to study anatomy and physiology to any real depth. It seems to me that an orthopod should be able to demonstrate this knowledge and a "science jounalist" would have enough common sense to research this before launching into an ill founded attack on the profession. Just my opinion.
  7. danny@rotherhampodiatry

    danny@rotherhampodiatry Welcome New Poster

    I currently work with a number of chiropractors and physiotherapists in a MDT clinic so i thought this thread would be a good place for my first post on podiatry arena.

    My personal experience (prior to training as a pod myself) of receiving treatments from chiropractors, physiotherapists and podiatrists has always been mixed - some good, some bad and some wanting as much money as they can get out of you!

    However, Atlas makes a very valid point that I agree with. What works for one may not for the other and I truely believe that my patients benefit from having access to chiropractors. I have seen patients have immediate resolution of symptoms following chiropractic intervention and I think that I, for one, could learn a lot from the manipulation techniques used by chiropractors in the treatment of lower limb conditions. It is definately something that I believe is missing from the under-grad training in the UK.

    Overall, I think an MDT approach almost always yields the best results and recognising when to refer and to whom is a key part in patient management.
  8. twirly

    twirly Well-Known Member

    Hi Danny,

    :welcome: to Podiatry Arena :D


    I believe a number of Pod' A's members use manipulation techniques.

    Previous threads which you may find useful can be located here.


    Warm regards,

  9. pgcarter

    pgcarter Well-Known Member

    Very interesting thing to chat with a pratitioner in any profession for long enough to start to get a glimpse of the "world view" that their training has fostered in them. I have got to know a chiro lately, and discovered that like podiatry there are multiple views of whats right or not right. There are also two fairly widely different ways to approach musculo skeletal adjustment.
    Method 1. Patient presents with acute problem and treatment proceeds until symptoms are no longer a problem.....(management by crisis).
    Method 2. Patient presents with acute problem and treatment proceeds until symptoms disapear and then appropriate action and treatment is undertaken to change or correct the musculo/skeletal problem that underlies the symptoms. This can be called pro-active or any other lable you want.
    We all know that to some extent the human body is plastic and can be changed by forces applied to it, this is the basis of orthodoncy or orthopaedics via use of Lizarrov frames etc. Chiropractic can operate in either of these two ways. In my experience it is the people who are prepared to go out on a limb and actually try to change an underlying problem that get themselves in trouble, because they cannot prove it is possible, but we are all familiar with amazing results I'm sure. The other sticking point is the money....how much, how often? and the guys that have tried to offer a year of consults at a cut rate for $3k or so really cop flack for it, but how many people abuse their surgeon for charging $3k for 90 min work? Unfortunately we all have our preconceived ideas and prejudices and proactive chiros fall outside most people understanding as a result they regularly get condemned by people how only know half the circumstances of a specific situation.

    In podiatry we all criticise the "cut and come again" mindset that does not address underlying causes, but in chiropractic the ones who do try to, are the ones who "get it in the neck"....my chiro joke for today.
    regards Phill Carter
  10. drpsnell

    drpsnell Welcome New Poster

    As a chiropractor (small "c" please), it's always fascinating and sometimes infuriating to see how your profession is viewed by others. It's refreshing to see thoughtful dialogue on personal and professional experiences with my ilk from my footsie colleagues!

    For pgcarter, re: the amount of care/money to help a patient move from reactive status to proactive status often has to do with the clinical chops of the DC, the DC's motivation, and their mindset/philosophy. A clinician well trained in functional diagnosis can save a patient a lot of money and pain by noting movement problems, communicating them in a way the pt can understand, and then offering clear guidance on better movement patterns. These methods are patient-centered and very effective in addressing the root cause.

    DCs of a different mindset, not unlike dogma pushers in other fields, may offer a solution of frequent manipulation only as a course of action and achieve beneficial results. This course or action requires low clinical skill, reimburses the DC well, and often creates a happy, but dependent, patient.

    I would suggest to my DPM colleagues, that you not suffer the DC who is suggesting a pre-sale package of "treatments" for a "discount" of several $1000s of dollars lightly. Those "doctors" are either misguided, doctor-centered (as opposed to pt-centered), or both.

    In the absence of clear science, dogma, anecdote, and opinion rule the day with the pot being thoroughly sweetened by charisma. Know that in chiro-land we are trying to answer the question of "how much manipulation is enough" for common spine related pain. Our clinic is currently 1 of 10 treatment sites for the largest NIH grant ever bestowed on any vein of alternative medicine , to investigate the dose dependent response for spinal manipulation on chronic back pain. We're currently in the 2nd year of the 5 year study. Next year we hope to receive a similar grant for similar study of neck pain.

    In the meantime, my suggestion to the other allied health providers here is to use the services of your local DCs for your personal and patients' benefits, but as with anything else, be a discriminating consumer. Go have lunch with them and find out which type of provider they are. Are they patient-centered or doctor-centered? Are they science-based or are they vitalists (the pop and pray crowd)? In short, would you send your mother to this doctor? There are DC colleagues in your neighborhood who will fit the bill, but they won't have the biggest signs, biggest yellow pages ads, and their offices won't look like cattle chutes. Let's all play well together for the benefit of our patients.

    Stepping down from my soapbox and heading off to the office...

    Phillip Snell, DC
    Portland, OR
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2009
  11. roger2shirts

    roger2shirts Active Member

    The BCA were justified in their legal case and the Judge found in their favour.
    Singh is now appealing the case but at the same time there is an all out assault on the chiropractic profession in the UK by friends of Singh! For instance there have been 500 complaints to the General Chiropractic Council about the content of individual Chiropractors websites.
    The worrying trend is that unless you have firm scientific evidence to support what you do and say you will be silenced and / or restricted in your practice. Thus research and development will be quashed!
    Watch this space podiatrists you could be next!
  12. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    Singh won the appeal:

    The BBC are reporting:
    Science writer Simon Singh wins libel appeal

    Full story

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