Only for Mark Russell and the curious (Allergy warning, may contain God, prepared in a place where g

Really?? Awesome!! How do I sign up?? Oh... hang on a minute... my bad... I read 'up' as 'off'...

 

http://www.subgenius.com/scatalog/membership.htm

 

I had a rupture. I don't recommend it. Bloody painful.

Its doublethink, I know. Its... complicated.

I think I understand what you're meaning David. It's probably too long a conversation for this arena and would bore our colleague's. Also, from a theological point of view, I think one or both of us is probably in a 1 Corr 8 violation (although I'm unsure which one.)

The faith I described may appear disingenuous or lacking in commitment to you. I'm used to that. But it has served me well and functionally for many years, during which time I have undulated from a position much like yours to the other extreme. So give me a "let" on this one.

 

"A rupture" as oppose to "the rupture", Robert. Hence you are still here, having not been sucked off this planet by the sex-godesses.

Moreover, since you do not, as far as I am aware, worship "Bob", why would you expect to be sucked off the planet by the sex-godesses, just because you suffered a rupture?

If the so called "rapture" ever comes, would you expect non-believers/ sinners to be taken up?

You know the sketch.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFGrQMD6Uqc With all the religions in the world, how do you know which one to pick for the best? What if the Jews are right? There's me picking sub-genius as my religion and "Bob" as my supreme being and I could end up making myself look a proper 'nana. What if the Buddhists are right? Maybe it's better to edge your bets, rather than just falling into the trap that believing that "your" religion is the only one true religion and then raging wars on those that don't follow your religion because they don't follow your religion? Or is it better to be a warrior?

 

How dare you question the rupture of Bob?!

I'm afraid my religion makes me more of a worrier than a warrior.

I've never liked the "pie in the sky when you die" or the "turn or burn" arguments for christianity. I see it as much more immediate than that. Can't wait til then for the spiritual "river" (poker analogy). I'm working on the flop hand. Why not buddism? Or indeed the church of the sub genius? Same reason I use gilette razors and slimflex pre fabs. I know other brands are available, but they're the ones which I've had best results with. Spiritually, Christianity works for me where no other belief system or lack thereof has. Simple as that.

 

I was looking out my dog collar (studded) when I realised, like Griff, that I had erroneously misread your subsequent post. What despair. In the meantime, I'll retain my current affiliation to the Church of the Sacred Tart, but of course I could be open to some persuasion, perhaps with some light bondage or role play or even a crucifixion or two, if it were deemed desirable. It might even facilitate a couple of resserections. You never know.

Seems to work for others....

 

Mark wrote

That's not good (that response) and probably my fault for highlighting differences and making a discord between those who should stand shoulder to shoulder and present a unified and truthfully appealing face to those who do not yet know Jesus. I hope you can (and expect that you do) look past the human created friction and even then see the Good news that is for you and hear that Jesus can heal anyone.

There is a balm in Gilead
To make the wounded whole;
There is a balm in Gilead
To heal the sin sick soul.

Some times I feel discouraged,
And think my work’s in vain,
But then the Holy Spirit
Revives my soul again.

If you can’t sing like an Angel,
If you can’t pray like Paul,
Just tell the love of Jesus,
And say He died for all.

There is a balm in Gilead
To make the wounded whole;
There is a balm in Gilead
To heal the sin sick soul.

Robert wrote

1 Corr 8 - excellent! Crickey isn't there is a lot to think about and unpack right there eh! And I would not have been as rigorous with you if you were not so mature in your faith, eager to explore your understanding and well versed in discerning discussion. Your propositions and interpretations that question the criteria and definition of Christian faith make me think about my position just as much as I ask you to think about yours.

I think Paul made the same distinction when writing to the Church of Corinth and Philipians (not that I compare my self to Paul I'm not that arrogant yet [even tho paradoxically he sees himself lower and more detestable as he praises God higher and Greater]) He (Paul) encouraged both to look at the big picture, put differences aside and yet still rebuked them for their shortcomings.

Would a discussion on this be long and boring to a reader, who does not yet know God, or could it be more enlightening to the apparent paradoxes of faith in Christ (actually caused by human perception and misunderstanding of God's ways)??

Even if we do not agree at least the reader, by our differences, can have the luxury of informed choice and if they were to decide to make the move toward Jesus and as their faith and understanding grows, make up their own minds about where their heart should stand.

Sure Robert and on that note we can both contemplate this passage

Philippians 3:12-16 (New International Version)

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15 All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

God bless you

Simon wrote

Simon

The son asks his father, "Dad, I've met lots of lovely women but how will I know when the right one comes along"? And Dad says " Son, you will know because your heart will tell you and when your heart moves you it will be irresistible and unmistakable. Beware though that other feeling and emotions will feel like your heart until you hear your heart really speak. And so before you move toward your new love ask what is my motivation? Is it things of the world? or is this something more fulfilling.

As I have written before God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, has written His love and laws on our hearts, and also put eternity in our heart. That is why we all know His laws without reading the Bible. By my experience only God can fill that eternity, that emptiness in the middle of your soul that nothing else can fill, because only God is infinite in all His nature and characteristics and only He capable of doing this. As God fills your Heart you will then feel His love and the Joy that only His love can bring.

Some things feel like they kind of fill this hole for a while, it could also be happiness, but not joy and inevitably it does not last, Gods grace and Holy Spirit is completely fulfilling, it is irresistible and unmistakable and like falling in love, completely unexplainable in a tangible way until experienced.

There is so much more to tell you in answer to the question, Why God? and I am willing to answer for as long as you need or wish to ask.

Regards and blessings to you, Dave

 

Thanks David Smith & ALL for their contribution to this thread... the journey was at least interesting, thought provoking & sometimes funny.

I realize that not everybody will develop the same views on these issues as I have ... I suppose that what makes the world such an interesting place. Have just watched an episode of... "The Wonder Years"... the show does bring out the beauty of this & life in general...



I remember reading a quote a while ago from the astrophysicist Robert Jastrow. In his book... "God and the Astronomers" he wrote in the final paragraph the following... “At this moment it seems as, though science will never be able to raise the curtain on the mystery of creation. For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.”
... when you eventually get to the top... David & myself will have saved nice soft reclining chairs for you all ... & a cold tall glass of Nopal cactus juice :drinks.

Sincerely... all the best,
Matt.

 

i had said I would not get involved in this thread but well....

Matt I will address this to you and I´m 99.99% sure that you did not mean it this way But I find the above statement condescending.

While belief in God and/or religion ( not the same thing in my opinion ) is up to the individual because you believe that your choice is correct there in no proof that

1. the Bible and the word of the Church is the word of God - if God does exist I hope with every cell in my body that it is not.

2. there is a God

But the point here is that every person is free to make their own individual choice what ever choice people make is ok as long as it does not effect you - no need to look down on people for making a choice, which I feel the above statement did as I read it.

Funny thing religion/God discussions if God was a pair of orthoses a we were having a discussion of its values and claims some of the strongest critics of the orthoses would be some of the most vocal believers.

ps on a sadder note having not every meet Graham Curryer ( I do miss his posts ) if he was still with us the discussion may be a lot more lively and if he could Pop back for 1 post we would have the answer. RIP

 

“At this moment it seems as, though science will never be able to raise the curtain on the mystery of creation. For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.”

Perhaps the real good news is that we have all been enjoying ourselves "over the final rock" for we have never been separated from the Divine as it all has been an illusion and we have chosen to incarnate on the mountain floor to experience, learn and create in this physical realm.

Yes, there will be time enough to be one with God, with the All, but lets have fun with the challenges of the world we live in now.

Steven

 

Why God? What Proof? How do I know?

3 Prophesies of Isaiah that tell of God's promise of rescue and New Life to be fulfilled by Jesus and given freely to us all upon acceptance by us.

1) A 2700 year old invitation to all to come to God through Christ, not just the Jews or the worthy but all who are thirsty and hungry for freedom confirmed by Isaiah 56 especially verses 6-8.

Isaiah 55 (NLT)

Invitation to the Lord’s Salvation

1 “Is anyone thirsty?
Come and drink—
even if you have no money!
Come, take your choice of wine or milk—
it’s all free!
2 Why spend your money on food that does not give you strength?
Why pay for food that does you no good?
Listen to me, and you will eat what is good.
You will enjoy the finest food.
3 “Come to me with your ears wide open.
Listen, and you will find life.
I will make an everlasting covenant with you.
I will give you all the unfailing love I promised to David.
4 See how I used him to display my power among the peoples.
I made him a leader among the nations.
5 You also will command nations you do not know,
and peoples unknown to you will come running to obey,
because I, the Lord your God,
the Holy One of Israel, have made you glorious.”

6 Seek the Lord while you can find him.
Call on him now while he is near.
7 Let the wicked change their ways
and banish the very thought of doing wrong.
Let them turn to the Lord that he may have mercy on them.
Yes, turn to our God, for he will forgive generously.

8 “My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the Lord.
“And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.
9 For just as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so my ways are higher than your ways
and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.

10 “The rain and snow come down from the heavens
and stay on the ground to water the earth.
They cause the grain to grow,
producing seed for the farmer
and bread for the hungry.
11 It is the same with my word.
I send it out, and it always produces fruit.
It will accomplish all I want it to,
and it will prosper everywhere I send it.
12 You will live in joy and peace.
The mountains and hills will burst into song,
and the trees of the field will clap their hands!
13 Where once there were thorns, cypress trees will grow.
Where nettles grew, myrtles will sprout up.
These events will bring great honor to the Lord’s name;
they will be an everlasting sign of his power and love.”

2) Heralding the coming of His Son and the Spirit of Jesus among men, God's promise extends to all people and blesses the people who are foreign to Israel the Jewish nation and in the finale admonishing His own Children (Jews) for their utter indifference and nonchalance once again. Wake up Jacob, Jerusalem and Israel and take stock. Welcome you foreigners, the way is open, don't let your heart be hard and closed off to this awesome opportunity?

Isaiah 56 (New Living Translation)

Blessings for All Nations (all people)

1 This is what the Lord says:
“Be just and fair to all.
Do what is right and good,
for I am coming soon to rescue you
and to display my righteousness among you.
2 Blessed are all those
who are careful to do this.
Blessed are those who honor my Sabbath days of rest
and keep themselves from doing wrong.

3 “Don’t let foreigners who commit themselves to the Lord say,
‘The Lord will never let me be part of his people.’
And don’t let the eunuchs say,
‘I’m a dried-up tree with no children and no future.’
4 For this is what the Lord says:
I will bless those eunuchs
who keep my Sabbath days holy
and who choose to do what pleases me
and commit their lives to me.
5 I will give them—within the walls of my house—
a memorial and a name
far greater than sons and daughters could give.
For the name I give them is an everlasting one.
It will never disappear!

6 “I will also bless the foreigners who commit themselves to the Lord,
who serve him and love his name,
who worship him and do not desecrate the Sabbath day of rest,
and who hold fast to my covenant.
7 I will bring them to my holy mountain of Jerusalem
and will fill them with joy in my house of prayer.
I will accept their burnt offerings and sacrifices,
because my Temple will be called a house of prayer for all nations.
8 For the Sovereign Lord,
who brings back the outcasts of Israel, says:
I will bring others, too,
besides my people Israel.”

Sinful Leaders Condemned

9 Come, wild animals of the field!
Come, wild animals of the forest!
Come and devour my people!
10 For the leaders of my people—
the Lord’s watchmen, his shepherds—
are blind and ignorant.
They are like silent watchdogs
that give no warning when danger comes.
They love to lie around, sleeping and dreaming.
11 Like greedy dogs, they are never satisfied.
They are ignorant shepherds,
all following their own path
and intent on personal gain.
12 “Come,” they say, “let’s get some wine and have a party.
Let’s all get drunk.
Then tomorrow we’ll do it again
and have an even bigger party!”

3) The clincher - Prophecy of Jesus written in the Old Testament over 700 years before Christ and yet precisely fulfilled by our redeemer Jesus Christ. This is like a history book in reverse but able to be confirmed by observation 700 years later and recorded in detail again. Isn't this the type of proof demanded by science and certainly far beyond the reliability of history written the usual way round. This is probably the best of many of such prophesy of the Messiah in the Old Testament, some dating thousands of years before the appearance of Christ. But don't worry about proof just understand the Word.

Isaiah 53 (New Living Translation)

1 Who has believed our message?
To whom has the Lord revealed his powerful arm?
2 My servant grew up in the Lord’s presence like a tender green shoot,
like a root in dry ground.
There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance,
nothing to attract us to him.
3 He was despised and rejected—
a man of sorrows, acquainted with deepest grief.
We turned our backs on him and looked the other way.
He was despised, and we did not care.

4 Yet it was our weaknesses he carried;
it was our sorrows[a] that weighed him down.
And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God,
a punishment for his own sins!
5 But he was pierced for our rebellion,
crushed for our sins.
He was beaten so we could be whole.
He was whipped so we could be healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have strayed away.
We have left God’s paths to follow our own.
Yet the Lord laid on him
the sins of us all.

7 He was oppressed and treated harshly,
yet he never said a word.
He was led like a lamb to the slaughter.
And as a sheep is silent before the shearers,
he did not open his mouth.
8 Unjustly condemned,
he was led away.
No one cared that he died without descendants,
that his life was cut short in midstream.[c]
But he was struck down
for the rebellion of my people.
9 He had done no wrong
and had never deceived anyone.
But he was buried like a criminal;
he was put in a rich man’s grave.

10 But it was the Lord’s good plan to crush him
and cause him grief.
Yet when his life is made an offering for sin,
he will have many descendants.
He will enjoy a long life,
and the Lord’s good plan will prosper in his hands.
11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish,
he will be satisfied.
And because of his experience,
my righteous servant will make it possible
for many to be counted righteous,
for he will bear all their sins.
12 I will give him the honors of a victorious soldier,
because he exposed himself to death.
He was counted among the rebels.
He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.



Regards Dave

 

Thank you Mr Weber for having "99.99%" faith in that my previous post was not "condescending". However, initially reading the above I was but then after thinking about it, I suppose it is good you brought this issue up... in case others were thinking likewise. Allow me to give you 100.01% assurance that my previous post was in no way intended to be condescending in any way. It was simply a play on Dr Robert Jastrow's quote in which I alluded to all having a chance to be a part of the journey... in which I also alluded (had faith - hope) in all involved will succeed... in their own time.

To put the cited quote in context, the following is Dr Robert Jastrow's quote in full...

"Now we see how the astronomical evidence supports the biblical view of the origin of the world... the essential elements in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are the same. Consider the enormousness of the problem : Science has proved that the universe exploded into being at a certain moment. It asks: 'What cause produced this effect? Who or what put the matter or energy into the universe?' And science cannot answer these questions.

For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.

There is a strange ring of feeling and emotion in these reactions [of scientists to evidence that the universe had a sudden beginning]. They come from the heart whereas you would expect the judgments to come from the brain. Why? I think part of the answer is that scientists cannot bear the thought of a natural phenomenon which cannot be explained, even with unlimited time and money. There is a kind of religion in science, it is the religion of a person who believes there is order and harmony in the universe, and every effect must have its cause, [but still believes that] there is no first cause...

This religious faith of the scientist is violated by the discovery that the world had a beginning under conditions in which the known laws of physics are not valid, and as a product of forces or circumstances we cannot discover. When that happens, the scientist has lost control..."

[Dr Robert Jastrow: He was the first chairman of NASA’s Lunar Exploration Committee, which established the scientific goals for the exploration of the moon during the Apollo lunar landings. At the same time he was also the Chief of the Theoretical Division at NASA (1958–61). He became the founding director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies in 1961, and served until his retirement from NASA in 1981. Concurrently he was also a Professor of Geophysics at Columbia University.]

However, I am somewhat perplexed... based on the above confession added (albeit, the above being your second contribution on this thread); why feel the need to post on the assumed .01% inkling of the alternative? To put things in perspective, there have been more blatant "condescending" posts on this 90 post thread... of which at least a few directed at me personally... yet no issue was made.

Once again, sincerely all the best...

 

Funny the things you see when you try hard enough....

 

Do I not recall a thread recently in which a pooch owner sought suggestions for an appropriate name. Maybe we should have another go with the above fella......any suggestions?

Dennis sprang to mind immediately, but not sure if the face fits....

.....and I bet there's no shortage of willing pilgrims who'd only be too delighted to kiss its butt. Maybe I should patent it....

 

Our dog, Boo! is doing just fine, thank you very much for asking.

 

Too true...

 

Too true... for some on theological understanding (i.e. above cartoon)...



Knock it, reject it... if one feels inclined... but at least be theologically proficient/correct.

Just a helpful pointer... from a self-professed agnostic .

 

Hopefully I have corrected (or at least made it correspond with observation) part of Matt's quote from Robert Jastrow? I think it should read as follows:

For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been fighting there for centuries.

Bill

 

No, you haven't corrected Bill... but have made a valid corresponding observation...

Yes, fair point Bill.

In fact, it reminds me of a quote from Mark Twain...

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination."
Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)

This also applies to "theologians"... as well as theists, atheists & agnostics (hence the turmoil :butcher.

 

I miss the intellectual posts from David Smith.

Steven