Welcome to the Podiatry Arena forums

You are currently viewing our podiatry forum as a guest which gives you limited access to view all podiatry discussions and access our other features. By joining our free global community of Podiatrists and other interested foot health care professionals you will have access to post podiatry topics (answer and ask questions), communicate privately with other members, upload content, view attachments, receive a weekly email update of new discussions, access other special features. Registered users do not get displayed the advertisements in posted messages. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our global Podiatry community today!

  1. Everything that you are ever going to want to know about running shoes: Running Shoes Boot Camp Online, for taking it to the next level? See here for more.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Have you considered the Critical Thinking and Skeptical Boot Camp, for taking it to the next level? See here for more.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Have you considered the Clinical Biomechanics Boot Camp Online, for taking it to the next level? See here for more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Have you considered the Clinical Biomechanics Boot Camp Online, for taking it to the next level? See here for more.
Dismiss Notice
Have you liked us on Facebook to get our updates? Please do. Click here for our Facebook page.
Dismiss Notice
Do you get the weekly newsletter that Podiatry Arena sends out to update everybody? If not, click here to organise this.

Where to buy microwedges?

Discussion in 'General Issues and Discussion Forum' started by greenwizard, Apr 28, 2013.

  1. greenwizard

    greenwizard Member

    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    As described here: hxtxtp://rothbartsfoot.es/RFS.hxtmxl (remove X's)

    I know this DPM's work and practices are very controversial on this forum, but I am a person with myofascial pain, headaches, weakness and numbess among other symptoms. I've seen a lot of healthcare providers and specialists ranging from podiatrists to a neurologist and many others, but PCIs are the only thing that provided lasting improvement so far.

    I wore the 3.5 mm at first and now have been wearing the 6 mm for around a year and they're still comfortable and providing me with relief. Some people here have speculated that a few millimeters cannot make a difference but this is not true. I have never studied podiatric medicine but the difference between how the 3.5 and 6 mm insoles make me walk and stand is incredible. Without the 6 mm insole I have pain in my heals and increased pain and audible noises in my MTP joints. My stamina, balance, and walking speed is noticeably increased. I feel like I know I could improve my condition much more with the right sized medial column.

    Any advice or suggestions would be very welcome, and I apologize for posting something that's probably off-topic. There's nowhere else I can think to ask. Should I make these microwedges myself out of wood, or is there an online retailer that sells tools like this?
  2. Lab Guy

    Lab Guy Well-Known Member

    why r u not asking Rothbart?

  3. greenwizard

    greenwizard Member

    I don't think he shares information outside of his policy of only trained professionals being capable of taking the measurement and prescribing an insole with the appropriate medial wedge (proprioceptive stimulus:morning:).

    He did publish a paper where he says the height of the wedge should be 30% of the first metatarsal deficit. According to Rothbart this is only effective for PSMv values up to 25 or 30mm. When the first metatarsal is elevated further than this the calcaneus and talus are also held in supinatus and he calls this the "preclinical clubfoot". He only shares information for how to treat this condition with those who've completed the last level of his course. I have suspicions that he treats this condition in the same way as the other foot type, but what can I do besides try and see what's effective?

    edit- For clarity what I would like is know where to buy microwedges as used in the link at the top of this thread.

    hxtxtp://www.posturedyn.com/manual/Navigator.hxtxm (remove X's) - This is a link explaining GRD Biotech's (manufacturer of insole) approach to fitting patients with either the 3.5 or 6 mm insoles. Under "Measure the First Metatarsal Deficit" they show a tool for approximating the distance to around 5 mm.
  4. greenwizard

    greenwizard Member

    Thanks for the links, I'll see about making my own if the EVA foam is firm enough.

    I'm not sure what part of my experience you think is placebo. From looking at pictures I know my posture has improved since wearing the insoles and my pain is reduced and overall well-being improved. It's hard to call it placebo when so many other therapies and treatments didn't work, why did they not cast their placebo spell on me?

    If there is nothing to Brian's theories then why do these insoles work so well for so many people, some of whom started out with very limited daily mobility? The average person is not a fool, these are real people seeking solutions for their real pain.
  5. Anthony S

    Anthony S Active Member

    High density EVA is very firm.

    The average person is of average intelligence. That means about 50% are below average. Some of these would be the ones who paid 30, 000 euros for a flat bit of rubber with a small wedge.

    I can show you testimonials for drinking pee, homeopathy, drinking bleach trepanning, hanging a poo around your neck on a bit of string and yogic bouncing. They're all apparently real people in real pain claiming real improvements. However I am unconvinced that there is any genuine benefit from any of those!

    Why do these treatments work? Lots of reasons, most notably regression to the mean.

    And as to "all the people" who have benefited, have you met them? Or are you working off of testimonials on websites and such. Because there is a thriving business of people who wrote positive reviews...

    Sometimes they even go on professional forums posing as patients to promote products! ;)

    Why do you get improvement? I don't know. Regression to the mean or ascribing a normal fluctuation to an intervention would be the most likely. Placebo a close second.
  6. blinda

    blinda MVP

    No :eek:

    Anthony, do you think that maybe. No, can`t be. Well, just maybe some people post on here pretending to be pods with an interest in learning/sharing, in order to promote products?

    I'm shocked, shocked to find that such deception is going on here!
  7. greenwizard

    greenwizard Member

    I was referring to people who have used PCIs bought online, or given to them by one the many clinics and practitioners who use them. Looking online there are distributors in Europe, Australia, Asia, and many in Washington state, BC, and the surrounding geographical area, making me think that their popularity is increasing, but mostly by word of mouth.

    However I have actually experienced a great deal of healing from these insoles so a comparison to any of those things seems silly to me. Also as I said I've seen in photos how my posture was significantly worse before I started wearing the insoles. The most obvious benefit is in my feet themselves, which feel mostly normal at the end of the day now, instead of being so sore or burning. The relief is acute and body-wide, every piece of me from my toes to my TMJ feel better when wearing the insoles regularly. When I stand on my tip-toes I get an endorphin-rush as the wedge pushes up on my first metatarsal and feels like exactly what my body wants. I could go on about the unexpected benefits but I feel like I'm beating a dead horse - they have been effective for me.

    Some people I've contacted through email and Facebook. Otherwise I'm going off of posts in forums and the sheer number of PCIs that have been sold. As well as the positive feedback from the distributors who keep providing them to their patients when there are far more profitable recommendations that could be made.
  8. Anthony S

    Anthony S Active Member

    Just sayin'. Stranger things have happened. There was that rain of fish, and the mayor of burgandy who spontaneously combusted. Justin bieber. The list goes on.
  9. Anthony S

    Anthony S Active Member

    Or word of blog. How very well informed you seem to be! Where did you read of this burgeoning market?

    As opposed to the people who think they have experienced a great deal of healing from those things... No, not seeing a difference.


    An endorphin rush. That's a new one!

    Very rare for the distributors of a product to give positive feedback for it.

    So nobody in real life then. If I provided you details of one of the dozens of groups who have hundreds of people who swear blind that magic water cured them, together with glowing feedback and huge sales by the companies which sell them, how convinced would you be?

    Impressive that you know so much about the numbers sold and the relative price points of pci's compared to other available treatment options. Coupled with your knowledge of where these devices have be sold you seem to know a great deal about this company!

    Well, you have the information you came for. Have fun making your own.
  10. greenwizard

    greenwizard Member

    I'm not sure if you're aware that you have an innate desire to be dismissive.

    Actually I did travel in person to a chiropractor who prescribes PCIs to almost all his patients with extremely positive results. I'm not sure what you disbelieve though, that anyone besides me, or even that I use these insoles successfully?

    I've had to do a lot of research because I made no improvement via the numerous specialists and others I had been seeing. I know a lot about the company and where the products are sold because they make it available online.

    Here are some locations outside the US and Canada that import them,

  11. Anthony S

    Anthony S Active Member

    Indeed I am. Of things which I think should be dismissed. Just like you dismiss the claim (supported by hundreds of anonymous claims) that drinking bleach cures cancer.

    So the person who was trying to sell you insoles at the time told you they worked really well. Right. Well, salesmen have no reason to lie about their products do they?

    What I disbelieve is that these insoles do what they claim to do. And that every claim for efficacy is genuine, rather than cynical promotion to increase the perceived efficacy of the product among the gullible. I also disbelieve that those genuine cases gain the clinical benefits they believe they do from the devices.

    So in an effort to assess the efficacy of a product you were considering trying, you researched where and how many devices had been sold. You know homeopathic headache cures sell a lot more than pci,s. on that basis should you not be trying them?

    Super! And to think I suspected you were here to plug a product.

    What was your op again?
  12. RobinP

    RobinP Well-Known Member

  13. Lab Guy

    Lab Guy Well-Known Member

    His first post had all the signs that he was posing as a patient to plug the product. His subsequent posts only served to validate it.

    Snake Oil salesmen are Green Wizards and have no conscious.

  14. greenwizard

    greenwizard Member

    No, I had already bought the insoles online and knew that they worked. I wanted to meet with and talk to a health care provider who understood my condition and could give me guidance.

    I have already tried and researched some aspects of homeopathy. I did so maturely and honestly and found they didn't work and were based on very old philosophies that may have been superseded. Would you insult me if I asked which homeopathic remedies for headaches you're referring to?

    I was and still am looking for what's referred to as a microwedge in the link in my OP. Not the medial column for making an insole but for measuring the distance between the ground and the first metatarsal head when the subtalar joint is in neutral. It's recommended that the medial column be 30% of the deficit to provide the maximum improvement in posture and movement.
  15. Anthony S

    Anthony S Active Member

    Oh that! Used to be called a bio vector.

    No, that you make yourself. Short bit of wood with the end cut at an angle (any angle) then draw on graduations for depth.

    You won't find them to buy because its absurdly inaccurate. Leave alone the difficulty of soft tissue under the 1st mh, the fact that the mh is not square etc, finding and holding sub talar neutral in weight bearing with any degree of accuracy is impossible. Doubly so if you're trying to do your own!

    There's a business oppertunity for someone with a saw, a ruler and a piece of one 'be one.

    How were you going to hold your own foot in neutral and measure it at the same time?
  16. greenwizard

    greenwizard Member

    Someone else can hold my foot or measure. The measurement is supposed to be taken when light resistance is felt, I'm hoping the soft tissue won't make it impossible to estimate within a few mm, just necessitate some trial and error.

    What were bio vectors used for?
  17. Anthony S

    Anthony S Active Member

    Just this. It's not caught on with anyone outside the pci community because of the accuracy / repeatability issues.

    To be honest, you'd be better off with trial and error. If you truly believe the few mm makes a difference. A 6mm height difference equates to a 2mm extra wedge, just add 1mm at a time until you think it's right for you.

    Bear in mind though that a degree or 2 difference in the camber of the road or wear on the shoes, or the cushioning of the inside of the shoe can make far more than a few mm difference to the surface of the ground as presented to your foot. And if you can find and hold stj neutral within a mm or 2 of accuracy, or find a friend who's never done it before and get them to, you're doing much better than anyone else has managed to!
  18. Brian A. Rothbart

    Brian A. Rothbart Well-Known Member

    Interesting discussion from 2013. I missed it, otherwise, I would have suggested contacting the company in Tacoma Washington. I believe they still sell the micro wedges.

    I have stopped using micro wedges. The Leg Rotation Test is more accurate and provides more information on the strength of the signal to use in the proprioceptive insole.

    Greenwizard has touched on a very germane observation: the sheer number of people helped using these insoles and the sizeable number of healthcare providers dispensing them.

Share This Page