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3D Video Animation of Subtalar Joint and Subtalar Joint Axis Motion

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by Kevin Kirby, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  2. Phil Wells

    Phil Wells Active Member


    Well done to both of you for this nice modelling.
    Great teaching tool.


  3. Nick is the one who knows how to play with this 3D animation software. I was helping him with the proper anatomical structure, positioning and 3D movement of the bones of the foot during pronation and supination.

    There is a minor error with the video in that the lateral longitudinal arch probably does not raise and lower as much as illustrated in the video in most feet since Achilles tendon tension will keep the calcaneus plantarflexed and will, in turn, keep the lateral longitudinal arch from raising as much as is illustrated during pronation of the foot.

    Anyone else see any innaccuracies which I didn't already notice and have corrected?
  4. Ian Linane

    Ian Linane Well-Known Member

    Thanks Kevin. I'd echo Phil's comments on a useful educational tool.

    I notice that you modelled this as a barefoot............;)
  5. Kenva

    Kenva Active Member

    Nice Work! Isn't the amount of glide between the talus head and the navicular bone a lot at end range of pronation? I would think the movement would be more evenly spread/devided between the talo-navicular and the navicular-cuboid joints...
    I like it!
  6. Dieter Fellner

    Dieter Fellner Well-Known Member


    I love this software - it will be a tremendous benefit if a software designer can produce a product that will allow non experts to assemble such a video. So very many potential applications!
  7. efuller

    efuller MVP

    nice video. The 3-d is really nice

    I would have preferred that they didn't use the "unlock" the midtarsal joint terminology.

    It also looks as if there is a bit too much plantar flexion of the talus relative to the navicular. You will see that much plantar flexion in feet with bad spring ligaments, but that looked like more motion thatn I've seen in the cadavers that I've looked at. So, it may reperesent a reality, but not an average.

    Another bit of terminology that I've never warmed up to is the "escape" of the talus relative to the navicular. How do others feel about that terminology?

    Did the makers of the video have access to that old Don Green video that you used to be able to get from McGlamr's educational institute? The one that had motion picture x-ray of someone walking in front of a c-arm. I saw it once, when I was a student, right before I had to leave for soemwhere. I could have watched it a hundred times.

  8. Ken:

    I would agree that the end range of talo-navicular motion (in the direction of subtalar joint pronation) looks a little bit too much in the video. I will see if I can get Nick here on Podiatry Arena to see what he can do about it.

    However, we know that the range of motion of the talo-navicular joint is much larger than that of the naviculo-cuboid joint. In fact, most authors consider that naviculo-cuboid joint motion is so little that the navicular and cuboid together can be modelled quite effectively as a rigid body. This was the premise behind Chris Nester's midtarsal joint research: the navicular and cuboid can be combined together to form one rigid body and the rearfoot (talus and calcaneus) can be considered to be another rigid body. Not exactly a perfect model, but it is likely the best we can do without bone pins.
  9. I had nothing to do with writing the script for the video. I don't like the terms "unlock" or "talar head escape" either.

    I agree, this is much better than what we first started with but this much talar head plantarflexion probably doesn't represent an average foot.

    Basically, Nick contacted me to help him with the video. He did most of the hard work. I was more of an advisor. I think Nick did a wonderful job because I have never played around with the 3D software and he has done many more videos, all of which are very nice.

    I actually have a copy of Don Green's video of fluoroscopy of people walking barefoot, in shoes and in higher heeled shoes. I agree these videos are fabulous but my copy is not working well, because it is so old. I haven't yet been able to obtain a better copy of the video from Don to see if we could post these up for others to see.

    Anytime someone says the midtarsal joint "locks" I tell them they should watch Don's video and see that the midtarsal joint is much more like a leaf spring than a ratcheting (i.e. "locking") joint. Anyone who watches Don's video would have to agree that the midtarsal joint certainly doesn't "lock".
  10. NicholasGiovinco

    NicholasGiovinco Welcome New Poster

    I just attempted to post a reply, but it returned some error message. Not sure what to make of it so I'm simply attempted to post again. Let's hope this one works out.

    Let me say this is my first post to Podiatry Arena, although I've been a member since 2008. Dr. Kirby gives me plenty of credit, although the script and possible inaccuracies are my fault. I apologize for that.

    Regarding software:
    The software I use is called Lightwave 3D by Newtek. It's been used in quite a bit of film, which you may recognize in the clip here. I'm still an amateur by comparison, but would like to continue learning this software and it physics capabilities over time, as it is capable of quite a lot. Very incredible to be honest, but a pretty hefty learning curve.

    Regarding Anatomy:
    I've been refining the anatomy for years now, and am still working to improve it. Every reference helps. Lately, I've begun using cadaver bones from the Podiatry Institute and scanning them using a graphical 3D reconstruction software application called 123D Catch by Autodesk. http://www.123dapp.com/catch/

    I have redone the Talus and am moving my way through the foot (navicular, cuboid, cuneiforms, etc.) I'm always welcome to feedback. The video Dr. Kirby has posted is nearly a year old and the Anatomy I use in the "Base Model" has been updated, since then.

    Regarding Sharing:
    I have posted all my work for free on YouTube and on the www.DrGlass.org website. You can subscribe in iTunes and download the videos directly for iOS or Android etc. I have also made the bones themselves available for download in Stereolithography format. It is a universally compatible format for 3D printers (if you are into that sort of thing). http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:22628
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  11. As I said back in 2006, Ouzouman and Shereff noted a range of motion (ROM) of only 7 degrees at the talo-navicular joint (TNJ) and only 2.3 degrees at the calcaneocuboid joint (CCJ) when a relatively small dorsiflexion/ plantarflexion load was applied. When an inversion / eversion load was applied TNJ ROM was 17.7 degrees and CCJ was 7.3 degrees.

    Van Langelaan noted a range of motion between the cuboid and navicular varying between 3.9 degrees and 6.8 degrees. While it must be noted that it is difficult to draw strong conclusions due to the varying methodologies employed, it might be reasonable to suggest that if the cuboid and navicular are considered as a rigid body, so too should the calcaneus and cuboid since the range of motion at the CCJ may only be just over a degree greater than between the cuboid and navicular.
  12. Dieter, you might get what you are looking for here: http://opensim.stanford.edu/
  13. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Quantitative Analysis of Subtalar Joint Motion With 4D CT: Proof of Concept With Cadaveric and Healthy Subject Evaluation.
    Gondim Teixeira PA et al
    AJR Am J Roentgenol. 2016 Nov 3:1-9

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