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Cranial osteopathy & quackery ?

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by helena h, Mar 14, 2009.

  1. helena h

    helena h Member

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    I have one serious question I'd like to pose to any would be scientists or doctors that I know has not been answered but I come into continual conflict with.

    For example , if you look at the idea put forward by cranial osteopathy ( reciprocal tension membrane system ) and you recognise the fact there is no way to measure tissue in vivo , then what exact evidence does the medical community have to dispute that this idea as quackery - or any others related to it ?

    How can they assume , when three’s so many others things they failed to predict i.e. global warming for one, that the body functions the way they believe it too when they have no data or measurements to back up what they say ?

    I am not endorsing the ideas of cranial osteopathy or saying their right , but I do not see how any rational person , as so many of them claim , can rightly dismiss something through inaccurate testing and their own bias against something they don’t even like I.e. because it discredits and undermines their own knowledge / system.

    Some in these circles claim they don’t even have access to the same lab, imaging to even begin to resolve this on-going problems , and clearly none will happen so long as science and medicine are in unison in regards to preventing any chance of them proving otherwise - so if thats the case how can it be quackery ?

    Would it not be fairer to say that is discrimination and unethical use of their ties with science to discredit and stop the furthering of knowledge ( which I thought was what science was for orginally ) that could potentially change medicine rather than supress it ?
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2009
  2. Sammo

    Sammo Active Member

    Definition from wikipedia for those that want it...

    "Cranial osteopathy is a set of theory and techniques that have been developed from the observations of Dr William Sutherland that the plates of the cranium, although fused, do permit microscopic movement or force dissipation and that there is a 'force' or rhythm that is operating in moving the plates of the skull.[7] Cranial osteopathy is said to be based on a primary respiratory mechanism, a rhythm that can be felt with a very finely developed sense of touch. Some osteopaths believe that improving dysfunctional cranial rhythmic impulses enhances cerebral spinal fluid flow to peripheral nerves, thereby enhancing metabolic outflow and nutrition inflow. It has gained particular popularity in the treatment of babies and children.

    The primary respiratory mechanism is not acknowledged as existing in standard medical texts, and at least one study has failed to show inter-rater reliability between craniosacral therapists attempting to detect this rhythm.[8] While other studies have reported evidence of the existence of such a rhythm, the link between any such mechanism and states of health or disease has also been contested. One meta-analysis from the British Columbia Office of Health Technology Assessment (BCOHTA) concluded that "there is evidence for a craniosacral rhythm, impulse or 'primary respiration' independent of other measurable body rhythms", however it was noted that "these and other studies do not provide any valid evidence that such a craniosacral 'rhythm' or 'pulse' can be reliably perceived by an examiner" and that "The influence of this craniosacral rhythm on health or disease states is completely unknown."[9]

    Craniosacral therapy is based on the same principles as cranial osteopathy, but the practitioners are not qualified osteopaths. The theory and techniques of cranial osteopathy have also had a major influence in alternative medicine in general.[10]"

    With many podiatric theories regarding injury there is a clear rationale, that can be explained thru existing scientific/physics priniciple for the mechanism of that injury, for example: abnormally high load -> specific tissue being stressed more than it is designed to cope with -> injury of such tissue. Thus.. reduction of stress on tissues by: (i.e.) stretch calfs (for ankle equinus) or casted insoles to reduce amount/rate of pronation (plantar fasciitis) can lead to a reduction in symptoms.

    Cranial osteopathy appears to me a little like tensegrity, acupuncture and reflexology.. very clear on the rationale.. but no real backup from scientific theory/evidence. It is not difficult to make a rationale for something (see rothbarts work for examples..) but it is difficult to really prove it might be proveable (let alone actually prove it!!). This is not to say it is impossible.. but just with the technology and theory we have now.. improbable.

    There is also a very clearly documented placebo effect.. and sometimes the fact that people perceive themselves to be getting treatment (be it physical or chemical) is enough to cure them.. it is my understanding that there is also a particular colour of placebo tablet that works better than any other colour placebo...


  3. Sammo

    Sammo Active Member

    whoa.. just reread that and decided it best for me not to post on pod arena at 3am after a wee dram of whisky.. make what sense of it you will.....
  4. Attaboy Sam :drinks.

    Interesting post! A few points here.

    1. If somebody wishes to make a claim of something it is up to them to prove its existence, not up to everybody else to disprove it. This is because of the nature of the scientific method.

    If somebody claims that there is a green mouse in my house, I will be at a loss to disprove them. However carefully I search, there will always be the chance that I might have missed it. They can claim I don't really WANT to find it and point knowingly to droppings and ask how I think they got there. I am in an impossible situation. They may even accuse me of suppressing the efforts of others to find said mouse. HOWEVER it is not up to me to prove that there is no mouse but for you to prove that there is! This is far simpler than to prove the negative, you have only to find the mouse, raise it by the tail and say "looky at the mouse!".

    It is upon you as the claimant to offer the justification to your statement.

    2. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Cranial osteopathy works with ideas outside of accepted scientific knowledge. That means, for me, that evidence for it should be MORE solid than i would expect of conventional ideas.

    So, as a skeptic (which, btw is not the same as a cynic), I would answer your question, if such it was, thus.

    You said

    I dismiss cranial osteopathy not because of the evidence which points to it being bunk, but because I have never seen any evidence which shows it is real!

    Let me put it another way. I hereby announce I have discovered a technique of magnetic manipulation whereby i can alter somebodies blood pressure by moving magnets around their chi lines to change their flow. I can even show a case study wherein i lower somebodies blood pressure using that technique!

    Whats that you say? You don't believe me? Why not!? :mad: Are you so hidebound in your medical models and mindset you cannot accept a new innovation which could further the course of human medicine?

    I bet its because you're all paid for by the drug companies!

    Kind regards
  5. efuller

    efuller MVP

    I would agree with the other comments about proving a negative. What proof is there that it does work. There are different ways of approaching the effectiveness of a treatment. You can look at the treatment empirically. That is you treat a bunch of people and see if they feel better afterwards as compared to some other treatment. I live in Berkeley where there is a lot of alternative medicine. I went to a cranial sacral practitioner once. I felt better afterwards. However, she had the most comfortable treatment table that I have ever laid down on. I fell asleep during the treatment. I don't know if I felt better afterwards because of the treatment or because of a mid afternoon nap. Napping does make me feel better and is cheeper. I'm not convinced that it works.

    Another way to test a treatment is to verify the explanation. As was mentioned in other posts the explanation involves "breathing" of tissues. If you can show that "breathing" occurs and "improved breathing" is associated with happier patients.

    The nature of science is that widely held beliefs may be incorrect and be discarded when new information comes to light. However, should one discard ones beliefs without any evidence that they should discard their beliefs?

    What belief system does cranial osteopathy discredit and undermine?

    I don't see how scientist and medical practitioners are stopping cranial osteopathy practitioners from treating 50 patients with well defined symptoms and then asking them if they feel better on some validated scale and then writing a paper about it. An even better study would be to compare the original 50 with another 50 treated with some other method.


  6. helena h

    helena h Member

    That makes it impossible then for anyone unless their scientist or have access to equipment to prove it then , doesnt it ?

    If every rare disease or condition came down to this I'm quite sure that it would impossible ( unless there was something visibly obvious ) for any one - but a scientist to prove anything.

    Beyond that you also have the problem of getting permission to access the equipment - which again ( is impossible ) given imaging / test are only accessible through certain channels i.e. such as the one with the beliefs you mentioned above.

    Even paid privately you still need approval - so really its not just about cost cutting ( what happens for example on NHS ) but also very much these "presumptuous and convenient self beliefs " why else ( unless your going to use the ethics excuse now too ) would you refuse someone who was even prepared to pay to gets done in the first place ?

  7. Sammo

    Sammo Active Member

    Yes and no.. to prove anything in a scientific forum, you need to provide scientifically or statistically significant evidence to show that your treatment modality works..

    You don't need scientific equipment to prove cranial osteopathy works. You need only a few things: A cranial ostoepath, a sample population randomly assigned to two groups (the treatment group or ones receiving the intervention and a control group... the afternoon nappers) and this group needs to be big enough for statistical analysis to work (say 40 people in each group would be acceptable).. Then you need a well designed study and a statastitian to crunch the numbers.

    Do the tests.. if the group receiving the treatment get significantly better than the control group, you have proven that your treatment modality probably works.

    And it doesn't matter too much if you cannot rationalise it using exact science, because it works. Like acupuncture.

    Scientists only try to present information in an unbiased way, identifying and removing as many variables as they can (other than the one they are researching) to make sure that whatever they are researching can be proven/disproven credibly. Being a scientist helps to think in this way.. but you don't need a PhD to think like this.

    "presumptuous and convenient self beliefs "... I feel you have already made your mind up on this subject. I personally wish to believe that some of these alternative therapies really do tap into something that science cannot yet but may one day explain (i can see Mr. Isaacs eybrow shooting up straight away).. but I will not prescribe something that has very little evidence or a no clear path of deductive reasoning to back it up.. I believe that is unethical.. especially if you are making patients pay for it.

    That is not using ethics as an excuse.


  8. helena h

    helena h Member

    One of the problems with this though is that is does not allow for variables i.e. it does not take into account the possibility that it might work in different way or not quite the same way believed i.e. only partially

    For example what if there is evidence a treatment has a negative or " different " result to whats expected ?

    No 1 ) Your method still means anything that might be potentially involved or happening still gets overlooked unless it has a definite outcome of working or not , what if , as I suggest , it does both ?

    no 2 ) It does not account for peoples own reliability of what is or is not happening i.e. a person ill is always going to " hope " to be better or feel a difference from something that does help ( esp if chronically ill ) , as opposed to the person already well i.e. the thirsty man in the desert as opposed to the plentiful man who has water available

    Proving for example any of this in such numbers , I doubt would have little revelance - there are already many claims of people being helped through their treatments but it still remains irrelevant and without imaging could always be disputed as placebo or something else, as is the case already.
  9. helena h

    helena h Member

    What do you mean , acupuncture is based on ideas themselves like the meridans " qi" ( energy medicine ) that is still considered quackery within other related groups like reiki .
  10. Sammo

    Sammo Active Member

    Hi Helena

    The whole point of scientific testing is to account for the variables. To reduce the number of variables until you have a controllable environment in which to study the theorised effects in a controlled setting so that you can say:

    I did this...

    The test group got this much better /-------------------/
    the control group got this much better /---/

    Therefore in this situation I was right..

    The problem with scientific testing is you have to be specific, and you have to bring the test under your control.. other wise you would need to invent an equation so complex and so all encapsulation that it would probably be able to solve much more important and interesting things than whether cranial osteopathy works...

    The idea is you start small.. so even if you know (anecdotally) that a particular treatment works for a particular person your test would be thus:

    I theorise that people who have plantar fasciitis through running too much (although don't have any other condition which may be related to this condition, be it through injury, illness or any thing else I can think of that may have an effect) will get better if they stop running. But i think they will get better faster if i use a specific treatment.

    Measure it, control vs test group.. you were right.. great... now make it a little more complex working with your new found knowledge that your treatment does actually work!

    It seems to me that this is a problem with alot of the alternative therapies... from a top down view you see people getting better all over the place, and they just so happen to be receiving cranial osteopathy, or homeopathy, or witchdoctory, or whatever... but when you focus in to the individual groups there is not enough consistency for it to be proven that it works..

    maybe there is a certain type of person that it works more for.. maybe it is a psychological thing, or a chi thing, or an inner energy thing (and I really like the idea that it could be, being a bit of a sci-fi nerd and a day dreamer) but until we can identify what it is and who benefits from it, it could be as much a waste of time and money to some people as it is the miracle cure from other people. And as someone who's profession is supposed to be based around "evidence based practice" i cannot professionally recommend or condone this until it is based in evidence.

    My god.. it is a long way down from this soap box..


  11. Sammo

    Sammo Active Member

    Lifted from the internet...

    For low back pain, a Cochrane review (2005) stated:

    Thirty-five RCTs covering 2861 patients were included in this systematic review. There is insufficient evidence to make any recommendations about acupuncture or dry-needling for acute low-back pain. For chronic low-back pain, results show that acupuncture is more effective for pain relief than no treatment or sham treatment, in measurements taken up to three months. The results also show that for chronic low-back pain, acupuncture is more effective for improving function than no treatment, in the short-term. Acupuncture is not more effective than other conventional and "alternative" treatments. When acupuncture is added to other conventional therapies, it relieves pain and improves function better than the conventional therapies alone. However, effects are only small. Dry-needling appears to be a useful adjunct to other therapies for chronic low-back pain.[58]
  12. :confused:

    Not at all! Simple enough. single blinded randomised controlled trial should be easy enough to acheive. Failing that a repeatibility study on detecting the cranial rythms would be a start, but there are several studies which show this measurement to be unrepeatable between clinicians!

    Erm, thats the nature of science! Actually, to be pedantic, a scientist trys to disproove things not prove them, but you get the idea.

    Strong words indeed! Who are you quoting?

    You make a significant presumption here though. I am a profound skeptic on Cranial osteopathy. I beleive it has no effect beyond that of a placebo. That said i never said i would refuse to allow someone to seek it if that was their inclinations. After all a placebo can help a great deal, especially in multifactoral conditions such as headache and LBP.

    :D Guilty. You know me too well old friend!

    Well here is the real trick isn't it. You know that placebos can have a success rate in hard to treat cases. What is more unethical, to not suggest they seek treatment which MAY work (via placebo) OR to suggest they seek a treatment you no to have no quantatative effect whatsoever?

    However that is neither here nor there. The question under debate is not whether medics should USE CO, but rather if it is appropriate for us to critique it. Which, of course, i think it is.
  13. I've read this 4 times and I can't make head or tail of it! Your sentence structure defeats me!

    Try this

    I go to a osteopath for migraine (which, BTW I did once!)

    I have an 8 week course of CO and they improve (they didn't).

    There are several possibilities

    My migraines, which are cyclic, went into regression, as they always do eventually
    (regression to the mean).

    The medical treatment I was undergoing at the same time for the same problem hit the right combination of pills which stopped them.

    The circumstances which may have been causing them, diet, work conditions, nocturnal babies etc, changed so the stimulus was removed.

    The experience of seeing someone every week who crunched my upper vertebra around, rubbed some sore muscles and held my head for 10 mins at the end acted on my all too suggestible subconscious and kicked the placebo effect into play.

    The osteopathic detected rhythms in the Cerebrospinal fluid (which have not been shown to exist that I know of) caused by actin and myosin fibers in brain tissue (which is not present in sufficiently organized patterns to evoke movement) through my skull plates (which are fused together), altered said rhythms by moving said plates (which are still fused) and that modality altered the circumstances of what is accepted as a complex and multifactoral condition enough to stop the migraines.

    The action of holding my head altered something else, we don't know what, by sheer fluke that mechanism, which we don't understand, altered the migraines, which we ALSO don't understand, and stopped them.

    I don't mean the last two to sound sarcastic, but I hope you get my point. When we consider a modality we should consider all the possible mechanisms carefully on individual merit NOT based on the fact that we are doing some of them and wish to "weight" them higher accordingly.

    PS, If i seem uncharitable its because I just had one of the aformentioned migraines.

    PPS. If I HAD had improvement when under an osteopath and then the migraines came back, I would try to recreate the conditions under which they went, INCLUDING the osteopath. I would not however, claim that it constituted proof.


    Not rising to it M8 ;)
  14. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    Migraine headache is multifactorial and spinal manipulation is very hit and miss in helping these people. As Robert alluded to there are triggers as unique as the person and the headache itself. I have patients who get great relief from my care for migraine where all else has failed and patients who have no response. Does that validate or invalidate chiropractic manipulation as a treatment for migraine headache? I don't think one can say and the studies do not reflect the outcomes that I have witnessed (sound familiar) over the years.

    The same holds true for osteopathic manipulation, it has a success and failure rate but I can tell you one thing with all due certainty; it is relatively safe. Cranial work I am not as familiar with, we do not perform cranial work in my office and the idea of "rhythms in the Cerebrospinal fluid.. caused by actin and myosin fibers in brain tissue" is a subject that also as Robert points out there is no scientific evidence of or proof exists. That does not mean that one day they will not prove it but to date it is merely a theory (and probably not a highly educated one).

    You seem to be searching for evidence that a procedure performed by your osteopath caused you some form of permanent damage. I do find that, no offense, you are all over the map having a general discussion about alternative modes of care. I doubt Admin will allow this to continue much further as this is again an academic web board devoted to podiatry and related fields.

    My suggestion is that you consult with a physician who has access to the aforementioned testing equipment and who can validate your complaint with science and an expert opinion (orthopedic testing, MRI, PET, CAT EMG, NCV etc.). Proving a compensable consequence of the treatment in court may not be as simple and certainly will not be entertained seriously without such proof in the first place. Regardless of whether or not cranial osteopathy is valid a person can suffer ill effects from any treatment modality. That is why malpractice insurance exists and best practices are observed; for your safety.

  15. Here are some strong words for you: cranial osteopathy? Load of old b@ll@cks. Spooner's half time verdict BTW. Take it or leave it. If you want to buy into it, that's up to you. But to quote me old mate:

    "16th of June, nine 0 five, door bell rings
    Man at the door says if I want to stay alive a bit longer
    There's a few things I need you to know. Three
    Coming from a long line of travelling sales people on my mother's side
    I wasn't gonna buy just anyone's cockatoo
    So why would I invite a complete stranger into my home
    Would you?"

    Breathe- U2
    Y'all know it's a kick ass tune. So let's cut the crap and kick some ass here. What is this thread about? This women has either had a good or bad experience:confused: with cranial osteopathy and wants to discuss it on podiatry arena. Yeah great. Can I suggest you discuss it with the people of "cranial osteopath arena", or anyone who might care? Yesterday, I knocked limpets off of rocks, safe in the knowledge that their lives were over and ****** myself laughing. Today, I took my 3 year old daughter to A & E to have her nose super glued back together. Tonight, I have to try and fathom what this cockatoo is all about?

    No offence, but I think you're in the wrong place, Helena.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2009
  16. And, so, you carry out the scientific study and that makes you THE SCIENTIST :bash:
  17. Helena:

    I am sure you are concerned and have a lot of questions about your medical treatment but this is a podiatry forum, intended for foot-health professionals, not their patients, and is not a forum intended for someone who has questions/concerns about other medical specialties. Your questions are better answered by those individuals who have more knowledge about "cranial osteopathy".

    My opinion is that admin should close these threads once a non-foot health professional starts asking questions and "probing around" about their own treatments for both the benefit of Podiatry Arena and for medical-legal reasons.
  18. We may sing it in a different key, but Kevin and I are reading the same music here.:drinks
  19. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    Kevin and Simon I feel that we ca agree that we are all on the same page. :D
  20. scottma

    scottma Member

    Quote: page304,305, Craniofacial pain,Harry J. M. von Piekartz, Butterworth heinemann elsevier.
    Hyperabduction test of the hip
    Marx(2000) described a connection between arthropathy of the craniomandibular region and hip abduction. Hip abduction was assessed by the Patrick-Kubis test, known to all manual therapists. This test is especially meaningful when applied as modified by Marx-the Priener abduction test( PAT, Fig.11.10). In contrast to the original Patrick-Kubis test, in the PAT hip abduction is measured in 90 degree of flexion.
    An impressive test to confirm CMD is the Meersseman test. The patient bites on between one and four pieces of paper with the second premolar and the first molar teeth to equalizemandibular malpositioning (Fig. 11.11). This small increase, by equalizing the position, decreases stress on the craniomandibular system and hip abduction improves by a minimum of 15 degree, indicating that the two areas must be somehow connected.
    The same phenomenon can be observed in occiput-atlas dysfunctions. After manual therapy treatment of the CCD, hip abductiohn again increases by at least 15 degree.( Hulse & Holzl 2003).It can be hypothesized that a positive PAT may indicate dysfunctions in the craniomandibular or craniocervical regions. Suggestionsfor appropriate diagnostic procedures are described below.
    Since I do'nt have the facility to run the test, please let me know if the test is valid or not, if you can run the test.
    Best regards
    scott ma
  21. This is, of course, correct. CO has little to do with Podiatry besides providing a field upon which to play the game of debating the scientific method in general and Alternative Therapies in particular (which DOES bear very much on Podiatry.)

    The same, or damn similar, debate could be carried out ref reflexology, homeopathy or any other of the alternatives.

    Unless of course you are Brian Rothbart in which case... :rolleyes:

    Oh well. I was having fun. But close it if you must!


    Knee still painful Simon? :empathy:. You seem tetchy!;)
  22. helena h

    helena h Member

    As far as I recall I never asked a question specifically about my problem or mentioned anything about it until I was asked

    The treatment I has was not cranial osteopathy - my mistake - its called NCR ( Neuro Cranial Reconstruction ) and from what I see is chiropractic in origin.


    Although I am not foot professional I was recommened to come here by one given how my problems have ultimately affected my ability to walk or put weight on my feet , maybe I'm wrong , but to me that sounds like foot health and at the very least biomechanics.

    Sorry, if my post has offended you or any one else .
  23. helena h

    helena h Member

    If I not even allowed to bring up some of the problems surrounding this on this forum because Im not "a foot professional " ( which I respect ) I don’t see how I am expected to get any physician to listen to me , much less be willing to investigate ?

    The last time I checked professionals where far more open to talking online where one can remain anonymous - hence the reason for my correspondence with the after mentioned parties.

    This is exactly the catch 22 I made reference to earlier as , " presumptuous and convenient self beliefs " .

    If by default bigotry and " professionalism " becomes a standpoint rather than a tool desinged to condem before trial then you do not have a science any more than the inquistion had " god ".
  24. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    Helena the point is not whether or not the professionals here are willing to discuss your specific inquiry, it is that the nature of your inquiry is:

    1. Not related to the focus of this professional board which is podiatry.
    2. You are not a podiatrist or related health care professional and this forum is not intended for patients or lay person to ask health related questions.
    3. The nature of the treatment that you are discussing is not one that any participant on this board will probably have any experience or training in.
    4. You have revealed a potential med-legal issue and it is inappropriate for us to comment, especially due to the above.

    This is not a mainstream chiropractic practice, is not a core curriculum or training inclusion in chiropractic education and this subject is not a part of the exams for licensure as a chiropractor. This technique was created by a naturopath and has a minute number of DC's who offer it (19 out of appr 60K licensed chiropractors)

    There are many websites and blogs on the internet that encourage patients to come and ask questions and I would suggest finding one related to NCR and naturopathy and inquire there. I do not know how much more cogently I can explain to you that it is not that your complaint is not important to us, it is just not the appropriate forum to discuss it.

  25. Helena:

    You are a patient asking health professionals their opinions on your own medical treatment. You initially did not declare that you were a patient and that your true intention of asking us questions is to gain information about your condition and about your treatment. As a health professional, I am reluctant to give you any information since that would establish a patient-physician relationship that you could then further use to declare that I gave you improper medical information, whether that is your intention or not.

    It seems you haven't gotten the hints that Drs. Spooner, Wedemeyer and myself have given you. I'll ask you politely again: this forum is not for you. Please find a more appropriate forum that would allow you to gain better answers to your many questions.
  26. helena h

    helena h Member

    There is none .

    If you or any one else can find forum where someone can ask an honest question to a " professional " about a technique that isn’t even acknowledged , as you mentioned above , by something some " professionals " consider " quackery " i.e. chiropractic profession . then I think your are assuming on false assumption.

    For the very legal reasons ( which again I respect ) you mention below and continually prop up could be justified by any one within their own paradigm as well i.e. Im sure naturopaths do not consider themselves any less professional either or scared of the same things you are.

    Lets be realistic also , what naturopath is seriously going to help someone whose claims could potentially cut their income , or at the very least , give it a bad name.

    Im sure your aware of this yourself - hence the ( legal ) reasons you mention below.

    Unless someone reveals who they are ( and even then it isnt so easy ) its very hard to prove any one gave you any information i.e. their are plenty of kooks and pretend doctors on the net , so I dont buy into legal reasons - sorry

    If it were that simple or easy to prove through the internet then Id already be a rich man .

    I do respect however what you say about not knowing the biomechanics in relation to the issues I brought up , though just because I brought it up ( cranium ) does not mean I was specifically reasoning it as the sole cause but rather a possible factor.

    The real reason I asked what I did was to try and " hypothetically " get an idea - not a professional diagnosis on my problems - ( regardless of how you interpt it ) about what sort of scenarios could lead to someone with otherwise healthy muscles capable of exercises i.e. only sitting down or standing in swimming pool ) but not in freebase i.e. on his own unaided

    Any way it seems you've made your mind up , I still think what i describe is gait and very much foot related , and something I thought of possible interest given how the foot relates to it but clearly ( for legal reasons ) and the fact I'm not ( foot professional ) you think otherwise.

    Call me stupid for ignoring your hints ( yes I was aware ) but I dont think you or any one here , can even begin to fully appreciate , the living hell I'm in as result of this problem and why I am reduced to trying to seek out answers in hostile environments such as this because they are the ( Only ) enviroments vaguely accessible for someone in my position.

    I would of thought forums or discussions boards would welcome cases , that might be out of norm , as opportunity to discuss or throw about ideas , but it seems I was wrong and that sceptisim , fear of being sued ( pretty hard to do to a whole forum of people ) is the half of the glass you'd rather look on instead.

    So be it.

    I wont say anything more, I hope karma is kinder to you than it has to been to me, though I doubt you believe in that either.

    thanks for your responses.

  27. roger2shirts

    roger2shirts Active Member

    Hi Helena,

    I'm a visiting osteopath to this site and lets see if I can give you any advice or help?

    Firstly I get the impression you have had a bad experience with a "cranial osteopath"?

    Secondly you seem to be ill informed as to why such treatment was given and what the outcome might be?

    I fully understand your frustration and have some suggestions for you.

    1. Write to the practitioner who treated you and ask for answers to your questions from them.
    2. If you are dissatisfied then you can contact the General Osteopathic Council directly and they will hopefully be able to investigate your case and get the answers you are wanting.

    I personally have been practicing "cranial osteopathy" for over 15 years and it is very safe and gentle and any side effects are short lived. Most of my colleagues would be very sad to know that a breakdown in the patient practitioner relationship had ocured and would do all they could to remedy the situation if they were in the same situation

    I hope this helps because the Osteopathic Profession is regulated and the safety of the patient is paramount. But I suspect your practitioner might be the best place to start.
  28. helena h

    helena h Member

    I dont know if NCR ( neuro cranial reconstruction ) see dean howell comes under any regulating board ,and even if it did how exactly would I back up my claims i.e. for the very reasons I already mentioned ?

    The doctor I saw who did this will not talk i.e. he does not recognise what happened or recall the mistake , no suprises there for obvious reasons - not that he told me himself either i.e. he used one of his staff
  29. helena h

    helena h Member

    since I brought up my problem on few problems I noticed he changed his site ( dean howell the guy who " invented " it ) you can even see it realtime now via the wonders of youtube


    knock yourself out..
  30. Peter

    Peter Well-Known Member


    You will find that most of the Pods/DPms in the western world who use acupuncture for pain relief are using the Western Approach, which is not based on thousand-odd year old principles.

    As for Traditional Chinese Medicine acupuncture, I don't think I can speak for that style.

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