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"Real" running shoes from Vibram?

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by admin, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    Press Release:
    Walking, everyday use, spare time: ergonomic comfort & contemporary design dedicated to urban life
    I not so sure they are actually running shoes or 'street sneakers', check the image:

    Attached Files:

  2. Admin2

    Admin2 Administrator Staff Member

  3. Look like they'll be most at home in the big-top to me.

    "Zero-drop" is obviously no longer important to Vibram in 2013; it's still all about the toe sockets though which, interestingly, is what they have their patent for.
  4. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Who will buy them?
    1. Traditional Vibram wearers won't as they not "barefoot"
    2. Others don't like the "toes", so they won't
    ...is there anyone who does not fall in those two groups?

    From what I can see, they are just 'concepts' so that does not mean that they are going to make it to market.
  5. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Right, they are nothing more than prototype/concept ideas shown at a Milan fashion show. Vibram seems to be going in two directions, one is the casual shoe or boot direction which appears to keep falling on it's face and unable to gain any marketing momentum.

    The other direction is in the lighter, athletic shoe direction. They have recently come out with the Seeya and the EL X. Both are really light and provide a lot of ground feel and flexibility. They have also come out with a trail running shoe the Spyridon and a winter running shoe the Lontra. With these new models, they have been closing out some of their original models.

    For the Spring, they have several water/beach oriented shoes that they plan on coming out with.

    I understand the need to continue to freshen the product line. As I mentioned in a different post, I believe they will ultimately be serving a niche market. I consider myself part of that niche. I hope they listen to the people who are in it for the initial concept and want to be around for the long term. The toes in their shoes are not for fashion, they provide a definite function. That is to allow them to design a snug, tight fitting shoe that simply protects the sole of the foot from the ground while allowing the foot almost complete freedom of movement. Nothing more, nothing less.

  6. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

    aren't you just a little bit annoyed they are still calling their product range ' the barefoot sports shoe' on their website Dana?
    My mail is that the company is moving right away from running product, (which appears 6th down the list of product on the website) and moving the focus more to casual/walking and adventure sports, where it all started.
  7. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Simon actually, the website is called, "Vibram FiveFingers: Barefoot Sport shoes: Toe Shoes & Minimalist Shoes". I'm not sure what they are supposed to call their site or really what you are getting at.

    I see the websites of shoe companies as marketing vehicles. Frankly, I find product marketing in general to be annoying regardless of the product or company doing it. In spite of that I tend to read the websites of shoe companies. I try to ignore the marketing and look at what limited information they might have regarding specifications and the intended purpose of their products.

    Simon, Running actually appears 5th on the list on their site. The list is ordered alphabetically and "R" for Running happens to fall 5th on the list. I really don't think alphabetical order of this list corresponds at all with Vibram's level of focus.

    Maybe if we looked at the last couple of products they brought to market, it might give a better feel for where their focus is. It at least shows where they have been spending their money. The most recent product introduced 3 or 4 weeks ago was the EL X. This shoe weighs 4.2 OZ for a size 43, has a 2.7 mm sole thickness with a 2 mm insole. The EL stands for Entry Level and the X is for cross fitness. I see the Entry level aspect relating to price point of $70 in the US. I would say if you want to run in these, you better be an advanced runner accustomed to running in FiveFingers because there is not a whole lot of shoe there. http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/Five-Fingers-EL-X-Mens.htm?activity=fitness

    The next newest product, introduced at the end of October or beginning of November was the Lontra. A running shoe designed for running in cold and wet or snowy conditions. The uppers consist of 3 layers, the outer visible layer, a middle water resistant layer which is actually waterproof and an inner fleece layer to help keep your feet warm. I just received a pair of these in the mail last night and wore them this morning on a 10 mile run in 12 degree F or -11 C temperature and 2 inches of snow. The shoes worked brilliantly and I expect to be able to wear them comfortably in temps down to 0F or -18C. http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/Five-Fingers-Lontra-Mens.htm?activity=running

    After running an average of 50 miles per week for the past 40 years, I have had more than enough opportunity to try many upon many models and brands of running shoes. In the entire 40 years there has never been a shoe that provides a running experience even close to the quality of the experience that Vibram FiveFingers provides. That is just my sincere opinion about what I prefer to wear running. Since I know what works best for me, no one has yet to be able to show me a shoe currently on the market today that provides a better running solution for me.

    Simon, for the life of me, I really don't understand what it is that bothers you so much about Vibram FiveFingers. I have spent the time to candidly and sincerely answer your questions in this post. I would really appreciate the same courtesy from you if you could spend a few minutes explaining to me why you are so negative about FiveFingers. I just don't understand. What am I missing?

  8. People with an urge to wear grease paint, silly wigs and trousers which are over-sized. They will probably find themselves riding extremely small bicycles and/ or driving small cars which self-destruct. Of course, they'll always have a "comedy" bucket of "water" at hand too. They shouldn't be too hard to spot in a crowd, they'll be the ones with the red-noses.

    Not to worry though, everyone is going to be wearing these in a few weeks time (but only in that London). http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...lined-pool-sliders-sale-just-time-Spring.html
  9. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Simon, just to make sure, is your problem with VFF about the way they look and that it conflicts with your sense of fashion? I can't remember you having much to say about how they function as a running shoe for healthy, experienced runners. Do you have an example of a running shoe that you can recommend to me that would work better for me than VFF?

  10. Dana, they'll suit some of the people some of the time. They may increase the risk of metatarsal stress fractures in some runners; they may increase the risk of Achilles injuries in some runners. They lack any significant cushioning, which will increase metabolic cost; they are generally quite light which will reduce metabolic cost. But they need to be 100g lighter than another shoe without any cushioning to reduce metabolic cost by 1%, they need to be even lighter than another shoe with some cushioning to reduce metabolic cost by 1% when compared to the cushioned shoe. I'm not so anal about shoes as to worry about saving a couple of grammes at the risk of increasing metabolic cost by reducing cushioning. And yes, I think that they look appalling. And no, I didn't find them comfortable. And yes, I do think that running bores are boring. How could I possibly recommend a running shoe to you, Dana?

    As I recall, when you first started writing on Podiatry Arena (for those following, Dana works for IBM and is a keen amateur runner) you were rotating your shoes to include "motion control" shoes, "traditional" neutral shoes etc. Can we assume you only run in vibram five fingers now, Dana? You've claimed frequently that you've never had a running related injury. So, presumably it doesn't make a great deal of difference to you, someone who "has been running for forty years" without injury, exactly what shoes you wear. In which case, go ahead, pick the running shoe that feels most comfortable to you, as my recommendation for you. I suspect you've probably tried every single one of them anyway.:rolleyes: If you want to look like a clown (in my eyes) in your choice of shoes, that's up to you. Do you have any other hobbies?
  11. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Simon, all of this is great but have you considered the compliance of the running surface that I run on?

    My point is that you can't recommend a running shoe to me, including the use of VFF.

    Simon, when I first joined this forum I did rotate my running shoes and I still do to some extent. I did have a pair of "stability trail" shoes Asics as a matter of fact. Asics doesn't market Motion control shoes. Yes I did have a range of shoes, mostly in the "lightweight performance" category including racing flats but the range did include "Cushioned" shoes, "Trail" shoes and a pair of "stability trail" shoes.

    Shortly after joining the Podiatry Arena I bought a pair of VFF and I realized how poor my "traditional" running shoes performed. I have since bought 5 pairs of VFF across 4 different models. Currently I'm wearing them about 85 to 90% of the time. I'm still wearing and rotating in my traditional shoes but now simply for the purpose of wearing them out so that I can throw them away.

    Ultimately I expect to have a pair or two of lightweight shoes that are more traditional as well as a pair or two of racing flats to wear interspersed with mostly wearing VFF.

    As I've repeated several times, running shoes have done a poor job at fulfilling their intended purpose. Given that, I might as well wear the shoes that provide the best running experience. Currently that is VFF, hands down. If a shoe company can come up with something better, I'm completely open to trying them.

    For those who are new here, I have been running an average of 50 miles per week for the past 40 years. That equates roughly to the equivalent of running around the globe 4 times. With all of that running experience, I have worn quite a few pairs of running shoes over the past 40 yrs. I am very familiar with the performance characteristics of a long line of models of running shoes across many brands. I have never been paid to run so by definition, that implies that I'm an amateur. A highly experienced amateur but an amateur all the same. I run more miles in a month than I suspect most of the people here have run in their lives.

    I'm not sure what working for IBM has to do with this other than Simon want's to point out that I'm not a podiatrist. On the same token and based on what I've read on this forum over the past 3 yrs, it's not clear to me that being a podiatrist qualifies a person to talk about running shoe performance characteristics either. You do not need to be a runner to be a podiatrist but you do need to be a runner to have a perspective into how different shoe performance characteristics actually affect your body. Coming from the IT industry where amazing things are invented every day, I find the level of intellectual discovery pretty slow in the area of biomechanics in comparison.

    At the end of the day, running shoe companies have done a poor job at designing products that reduce, prevent or cure injury and they have done a poor job at designing shoes that improve efficiency. Given that, a runner might as well just find a pair of shoes that feel good, that enhance their running experience and go for it.

    Debating about one style of running shoe vs another is just plain silly and pointless.

  12. Go out and measure it, then tell us what the mean and modal values are, then I can consider it. Second thoughts, don't bother. Rather, go out and measure it and then tell someone that cares about it and you.

    Yet, I and many of my colleagues have apparently helped many, many runners over the years who have experienced running related injuries, simply through providing alternative shoe recommendations. This may be through altering kinetics, it may be via placebo. I don't expect you to have any experience of this, since you are not a clinician and apparently have never experienced a running related injury. Hence it is important to point out that you work for IBM and are in no way medically qualified.

    There you go then, you didn't get injured in "stability" shoes and you haven't got injured in vibram five fingers. Good for you. Perhaps if you pushed yourself harder and started achieving better times, you might get some sponsorship, maybe even from Vibram; you might even be able to give up working for IBM. However, that could also be a double edged sword, since if you were more competitive, running faster and training harder, you might just get injured. Who knows? And the next runner that turns up to my clinic with a metatarsal stress fracture after running in vibrams? I may suggest to them that after the injury has healed they may wish to choose a shoe to run in that has more cushioning and a larger heel height differential; maybe try to strike rearfoot first; maybe to run less. But each to their own. And the next runner that turns up with anterior compartment syndrome? I may suggest that they try to strike the ground forefoot first, and maybe even to consider a shoe that might promote a forefoot strike, etc. But each horse to their own course. My job is to look after the injured and unwell (this year marks the 25th year anniversary of me attempting to do this), I take a patient-centred and evidence-based approach to my job; your job is something to do with IBM. Seriously, what is it you do at IBM? Do you have any other hobbies we could discuss, Dana? What did you do at work today?
  13. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    Dana works for IBM? So she doesn't have a background in bio-mechanics, shoe design or medicine? So Dana can I assume all of your posts are "personal experience"?

    Vibram - the only shoe company in the world that promotes running barefoot and then sells you a $200 shoe to do it in! The sweet, sweet irony!
  14. blinda

    blinda MVP

    On the nose, Paul.
  15. blinda

    blinda MVP

    As Paul astutley pointed out, you don`t have "a background in bio-mechanics, shoe design or medicine". So what qualifies you to state that our, that is podiatrists, (not IBM staff) "intellectual discovery" is "pretty slow in the area of biomechanics?" Or indeed to comment on any aspect of the lower limb branch of medicine devoted to the study of, diagnosis, and medical treatment of disorders of the foot, ankle, and lower leg? WHY ARE YOU HERE, DANA? Initially, your experience was quite interesting, from an N=1 perspective. But, please....give it a rest. This is NOT a self-indulgent, nauseating, egotistical runners` forum. Some of us are interested in assessing, diagnosing and treating pathology.....
  16. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    Don't get me wrong, I value Danas input but I also think it is valuabe to know her background as I was under the impression from several of her previous posts that she worked in the medical field with biomechanics and footwear. Good to iron things out and know where we are all coming from here and what our actual points of view are. As a Podiatrist I am open to any research or evidence suggesting how my patients will benefit or detriment from it. I am not closed minded or against things - but I do question motives for things which are pushed upon my patients. I cannot tell you how much of my day is spent mundanely explaning the concepts (or lack there of) of minimalist running to all of my patients. Its getting to the point where I am about to write a "facts sheet" and just hand it to each one of them. My biggest issue, most of my patients are being fed BS by the minimalist running community which is easy to digest but burns on the way out and generally leaves them feeling bloated and nauseated! I think we all have a moral and ethical responsibility to report outcomes based on evidence not personal experience of the N=1 variety.

    Its one of the reasons I have some respect for people like Professor Irene Davis - she talks about barefoot or minamalist running, discusses its limitations - but every morning, without fail she is out pounding the pavement BAREFOOT! I am still at a loss how barefoot running can be promoted by telling you to do it......in a $200 shoe! Its irony at its best.
  17. blinda

    blinda MVP

  18. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Binda, it only takes a little common sense to look at the shoe industry over the past 40 yrs and realize they have gotten nowhere in all of that time. By saying intellectual discovery has been pretty slow was being generous. In the area of running mechanics and shoe design the results over the last 40 yrs have been downright pathetic.

    I am sick of how everyone hides closed mindedness behind this N=1 BS. Yes, I am N=1, I challenge you to go out and find a group of runners who have run close to 100,000 miles over the course of 40 yrs without a single running injury where N>1.

    What blows my mind about this group is that if you are so interested in learning about disorders and pathology so that you can treat people, why is there no interest in learning about what keeps a runner healthy. I may be N=1 but what is it that has allowed me to run as much as I have for as long as I have without a single injury? Clearly, in spite of me being N=1, there is something going on with this N=1 that is different than your n=1000 who can't run around the block without getting injured. Does anyone on this forum know what that difference is? Does anyone on this forum care? It is this very attitude and unwillingness to learn that results in intellectual discovery being slow.

    Blinda, I came here to learn and I did learn. What is interesting is that what I've learned here is far from what I expected to learn.

  19. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Paul, amazing isn't it? Someone who doesn't have a background in Biomechanics, shoe design or medicine has forgotten more about running shoe design and mechanics than you have ever known. You made your complete lack of understanding known in an earlier post. Yes the irony of that. The scary part is you are the one advising clients, I am not. You can assume my posts are based on studying the design and mechanics of running shoes. I don't think my background knowledge came from data transferring from the ground when I run.

    In the US, Vibram does not sell shoes for $200 or even close. Yet Asics has a shoe that they sell for $190, heck of a deal. How much does the Asics Gel Kensei 4 sell for in Australia?

  20. blinda

    blinda MVP

    OK, first of all it`s `blinda`, `Belinda`,` Bel` or `Bitch` if you`re a TFS poster. Not `Binda`.

    Second, your repeated assertion that "intellectual discovery in running mechanics" is "downright pathetic" is, from my professional perspective, insulting at best, given your stated qualifications.

    Thirdly, I am so pleased for YOU, that YOU ” have run close to 100,000 miles over the course of 40 yrs without a single running injury”. Good job, as they say over there.

    Fourthly, your posts reveal that you know nothing about evidence based medicine.....so there is little point in continuing dialogue.

    Lastly, I`m glad you have learnt something from the wealth of biomechanical experts here, who willingly give of their time and expertise for VERY little return. Go and enjoy your new found knowledge.


    PS, If you`re so "sick of how everyone hides closed mindedness" here....again, I ask; why are you STILL here?

    PPS, Say `Hi` to Mark Plaatjes next time you`re in Boulder, or running with him.
  21. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

    It is very simple Dana.. Vibram.. through their product five fingers, and often via their ex CEO Tony Post, has consistently engaged in an overt campaign of misinformation and dishonest claims. They have made little modification to this behaviour on their current website. Their approach to shoe design is simplistic and the claims they have made historically and currently are at best extravagant, and cannot be backed up by the science. They are also the only "running shoe' that I am aware of that comes with a 15 page how to use manual and a health warning. They do this out of necessity because it has become evident VFF is the only 'running shoe" where cause and effect in injury can be actually established. In short.. for gullible consumers who do not understand the gross shortcomings of the product for running, VFF are dangerous.
    THAT is what bothers me and THAT is the reason they are currently being sued.
  22. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    Not really I was being sarcastic

    I need a degree just to try and get my head around that comment! Its mind numbing!

    Or you did - i'm not so sure your unidirectional view on my posts is 100% correct.

    Yes - you are correct - and there is a reason for that. Its also the reason that (like many others on these forums) us lower limb specialists advise and take care of some of the biggest athletes on the planet. They put their trust in us. When they have a lower limb problem they pay us to take care of them. When they have a computer problem they pay IBM. Go figure!

    I can't "assume" anything...I "assumed" you had some medical qualifications from your posts on here previous and I was led down the garden path so to speak, I won't make that mistake again!

    No idea - I don't sell shoes because I am a Podiatrist. Athletes foot does though! LINK HERE

  23. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Simon OK and thank you for responding.

    I think I understand, it is the marketing tactics that concern you.

    It seems to me that running itself can be demonstrated as the cause and effect to injury. These are rhetorical questions to think about, you don't need to spend time answering them. Weren't people getting injured while running long before FiveFingers came into existence? Don't people get injured running today who have never been near a pair of FiveFingers? Don't all running shoes have "gross shortcomings"? Wouldn't it be good to give out a how to use manual and a health warning with all running shoes? Don't FiveFingers just shift the stress points from the knees and hips to the feet and calves?

    You have every right to dislike a shoe and/or it's manufacturer. I just really couldn't understand what it was that you disliked about the actual shoe but you explained your dislike for the companies marketing practices.

    Just as an aside, I have seen an education section on the FiveFingers web site, in spite of buying 5 pairs of FiveFingers, I've never received a 15 page manual, including the pair I just took out of the box last night. I vaguely remember some cautions about how running in the shoes place different demands and you need to ease into using them but that is about it.

    I know I am N=1 but this N=1 has run several thousand miles in FiveFingers and I've never felt better. Then again, when I started using FiveFingers, I applied a little common sense. I walked in them for 2 months before I even did my first run in them. Once I started running in them, I limited it to one run per week. Over time, I found myself wanting to run in them more and more over my other shoes. I am now at a point where I hardly wear anything but FiveFingers.

    The irony in all of this is that I didn't own FiveFingers until I started reading the Podiatry Arena. I just could not get over the distaste many of the writers had on this forum for FiveFingers. It was like it was coming from your very core. For something to cause such a reaction, I had to try them out. Buying my first pair had nothing to do with the marketing from Tony Post or Vibram. It had to do with the reaction so many had on this forum. Buying pairs 2 through 5 had to do with my desire to try various models based on the merit of the models I currently owned.

    The shoes provide an incredible running experience that simply can not be repeated by traditional running shoes or even shoes that are currently marketed as "minimal".

    OK Simon, you and everyone else on this forum will be relieved to know that I am done talking about this for now. :drinks

  24. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

    Dana.. I really think you misunderstand me.. I am not a combative person at all, and i am happy to talk about this stuff in a civil and constructive manner until the cows come home. i respect everyone's opinion (well... nearly everyone), and more often than not I learn something or at least am given pause for thought. So I am not relieved or otherwise.
    You often make reference to ASICS quite often, and although i work for this company, I post here as a podiatrist, clinician and researcher, so I long ago decided not to comment on these issues. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, no product is perfect, and every manufacturer needs to be called to heel at times. ASICS can fight their own battles.
    I have no problem with VFF.. the product. None whatsoever. My personal view is that they have, through questionable marketing, elevated a product that WAS designed for kayaking, to a purpose it was never designed for, and this may elicit some problems for people who cannot understand the finer nuances of running footwear, or who are over eager to immediately pull miles in their new 100/120/180 dollar shoe..the cost is not relevant. i hope you can believe that from time to time, I have similar discussions within my own company when I think claims cannot be supported,. that is an important part of my job, and one I take very seriously indeed. It does not mean we always get it right, and I am sure comments could be found that would embarrass me, but, all I can say is I am working to make sure, wherever possible, we deal with facts. ithis is the kind of thing that concerns me... I have pulled direct from VFF ..."The benefits of running barefoot have long been supported by scientific research. And there is ample evidence that training without shoes allows you to run faster and farther with fewer injuries.".. nothing to do with the product.. just the way it is sold.. Best Simon
  25. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Simon, there is a reason I often make reference to ASICS. It is not intended as an attack on you, on ASICS or to be a reflection of my opinion about ASICS.

    You are respected by your colleagues and you are closely connected with ASICS. Because of that, ASICS has become sacred ground on this forum. I can't ever remember seeing any negative comments about ASICS from your peers.

    When the routine, idiotic, stupid comments come out about FiveFingers and most of the other shoes marketed as "minimal" on this forum, I can't resist pointing out that those very comments can be made about the big shoe companies and/or traditional shoes. When someone is throwing stones, I like to point out the glass house and since ASICS is sacred ground on this forum, I see it as having bigger windows. What is interesting is that when I use ASICS as an example, it goes silent...... Turns out, using ASICS is a great way to shut people up when they make stupid comments.

    Take yesterday for example, there were three blatantly idiotic comments made about Vibrams and Tony Post's new shoes. I call them idiotic because they had nothing to do with the function of the shoes they were trying to criticize. I guess I could use childish or immature but idiotic seems to fit best.

    Stupid comment 1: Vibrams cost $200
    Stupid comment 2: Vibrams are clown shoes
    Stupid comment 3: Innate amplification?.........here we go again with more meaningless slogans to sell overpriced shoes...

    What better place to go than to the sacred ground to find an example that shows these same idiotic comments can easily be applied to one of our favorite company's pedestal products?

    I chose the ASICS Gel Kensei 4, a fine example. Priced at $190 in the US they are 27% MORE expensive than the highest priced FiveFinger. I had to include an actual photo to show the colorway of these shoes, seeing is believing. Whether these shoes fit the clown shoe category better than Vibrams is up to personal taste but I'd have to say they are a contender. Finally, I see innate amplification as a "technical marketing buzword" rather than a slogan. Asics has got to be the king of "technical marketing buzwords" and they use 11 of them when describing the Kensei on their website. I'm just pointing out a prolific use of buzwords to help sell a very expensive shoe.

    When I was deriving the price per buzword of the Kensei, it thought it would be interesting to see if there is a positive correlation between the number of technical marketing buzwords used to describe a specific shoe and it's price. I also wondered if the price per buzword of the Kensei was high or low relative to other Asics shoes or if it was consistent.

  26. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

  27. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Paul, why do you think the ASICS GT 2000 is a terrible shoe? It has been enormously successful for ASICS for many years.

  28. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

    you do realise the Kinsei is a concept shoe do you not Dana?.. I am sure you are fully conversant with the philosophy and intent of this particular shoe so no need to go into details..btw it is Kinsei, not Kensei as you state.. the Japanese are very particular about this. Kinsei is an actual Japanese word and it has a meaning..
  29. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

    I would be interested to hear your thoughts too Paul
  30. I'm really confused.

    From the Vibram website

    Right, so leaving aside the slightly kooky description of the feet, the running shoe which "fixes these abnormalities" is a bad thing. And, of course as we all know, "weakens" feet. Testify my brother, I'm a believer.

    And further on,

    So an assistive device to support your foots function would defeat the purpose. Got it. Damn those supportive shoes!

    Fortunately these shoes allow your foot too... wait, what?! So having designed a shoe with NO support, because supporting the foot weakens it and desensitises it... we're now going to design a shoe which does not support the foot... which supports the foot.

    Obviously, the mantra of the barefoot zealots for years, heel strike bad, forefoot strike good.

    Cushioning the heel in the first stage of... HERESY!!! BURN THE WITCH!!!!!

    Not seeing a lot of consistency here....
  31. Ok. I have a business model to suggest.

    Naturism (or nudism as it used to be known) is a wonderful thing. Feel the wind blowing through your... hair. Feel your connection to the environment. Be as you were DESIGNED to be before the evil trappings of modern civilisation made things all wrong with their coverings.

    Hey lets design a product with the advantages of naturism, but make it more comfortble and convenient! Like a lightweight, seethrough garment which LOOKS like your naked and FEELS like you're naked... but keeps you somewhat warm and protected from inconvenient nettles and drafts. Naked clothing if you will.

    However, you may find that this "naked clothing" is a bit chilly and shows your man boobs / appendix scar. In which case, why not try my new range of "naked clothing". Its the same lightweight seethrough garment as before, but with a heavy cotton lining fitted for additional warmth and opacity. So you can enjoy all the benefits of not wearing clothes, WHILE WEARING CLOTHES!!!!

  32. Also look out for my exciting new product, "dehydrated water" (tm). Simply add water to dehydrated water for a refreshing drink with none of the drawbacks of water.
  33. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Sleep deprivation
  34. :p!!!

    Still makes more sense than barefoot shoes with cushioned heels and arch supports. I'm sleep deprived, whats their excuse?
  35. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Simon, go back and look, the ASICS Gel Kinsei 4 as the number implies has been on the market for 4models now. The current 4th edition of this shoe has been on sale in the US since early 2012. If you don't believe me, go look on www.eastbay.com, a major US sport shoe retailer. All I can figure is you have the Kinsei confused with something else.

    Sorry about the typo, I can relate, people misspell my last name all of the time, too many vowels.

  36. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    Robert, what is your height and weight?
  37. 6" dead and about 14 stone. Why?
  38. Dana Roueche

    Dana Roueche Well-Known Member

    I have a point to make but never mind, it's just not worth wasting my time on it.

    Instead, I'm done.
  39. And the nominations for the most randomly pointless post of 2013 are now open.

    Well, I would have a relevant, witty and evidence based comeback which would have rendered your point invalid!

    Holy tobogganing satan, we're onto hypothetical posts now! We can discuss the conversations we would have had about the maximalist minimalist running shoe. Maybe I'm just a little tetchy today but this seems to plumb new depths of asinine and irrational verbal micturate. Is it just me or is this a new low?
  40. blinda

    blinda MVP

    No, it`s not you, Robert. But, you really should go and get some shut eye :empathy:

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