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Theta Orthotics

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by dougpotter, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. dougpotter

    dougpotter Active Member


    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    Is anyone here familiar with Theta Orthotics? They are the brain child of Dr. Brent Jarrett from Utah. Any information will be appreciated.

    http://www.theta-orthotics.com/
     
  2. Re: Theta Ortoctics

    We've seen some pretty poor "science" behind insoles before, but I think this one takes the cake!!

    You'll love this one Ian. Send herslef from the room before you follow the link lest her delicate ears be offended.

    Some highlights...

    Riiiiight....
    Oh, Ok.

    [​IMG]

    More Theta = Less Pain

    [​IMG]
    Reeeeeeally??????!!!! Thats some pretty powerful research!

    Oh Hell no.

    [​IMG]

    I think we can stop there. Obviously written by someone who knows absolutly P**s all. On the strength of that Doug I'd be disinclined to trust anything written on or for them.
     
  3. dougpotter

    dougpotter Active Member

    Re: Theta Ortoctics

    Thanks--I wondered about them. I tried a pair some time ago and they aren't different than anything I've see. Additionally, I couldn't grasp the biomechanical theory behind the product.
     
  4. Re: Theta Ortoctics

    Pretty big wedge in that picture, what's the angulation on that device and will it fit in the court shoes I wear on a Friday?

    This little fella, I do like:

    [​IMG]

    Nice find Robeer.
     
  5. Re: Theta Ortoctics

    I think he'd get a lot of use!

    How about it craig. I could live without one of the santa's....

    Also got a souped up headbang:

    [​IMG]

    and quite a good "shock" (love the twitchy eye)

    [​IMG]
    Thats because its illogical, unproven, made up rubbish! :drinks
     
  6. Re: Theta Ortoctics

    Oh its like a goldmine full of brown sticky diamonds!

    *
    Preposterous! 400% indeed. I'd estimate at least 408%. Unless there is a d in the month in which case about 374.5% better than any other orthotic.

    Surely even the public must wonder at this sort of thing!
     
  7. Re: Theta Ortoctics

    Lets do a quick fag packet calculation to see the height of that device on the medial side of that 40 degree rearfoot posted device. Lets say the width of the bottom of the heel cup section of a device (the adjacent) is 5cm:

    opp = adj x tan 40. Therefore, opp = 5 x tan 40= 4.2 cm + the shell thickness. Yeah, I reckon I'll get that in your slip-ons (you won't get you foot in there at the same time and keep the shoe on, but it'll go in there).

    If the width of the rearfoot post is 6cm, it pumps that height up to 5cm. That's nearly 2 inches in American money.

    Patient: "I feel taller"; me: "no ****".
    Patient: "it hurts around the outside of my ankle"; me: "no ****"
    Patient: "According to the Dr at the casualty dept., the X-ray shows I have an avulsion fracture of my styloid process"; me: "no-****, will you be taking a litigation case out against the person who prescribed this device for you?" Patient: "no ****!"
     
  8. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Re: Theta Ortoctics

    My maths doesn't extend to trig this late in the evening, but here's my input:

    2000 x 178 = $356,000

    Thats not including consultation fees of course... or reviews...

    How does Dr Brent Jarrett sleep at night you ask? On a bed of effin cash I suspect.
     
  9. Re: Theta Ortoctics

    Who'd have guessed at school that one day trigonometry could make us Laugh out loud!

    From the website:-
    Ok, I fail. I don't understand.
    Whats that going to cost internationally?

    :eek:

    Kevin, If you are following, I'd love you to challenge Ed with this at the "head to head". He argues higher = better. These are higher than his. I wonder if he would conceed that they therefore are superior...
     
  10. Re: Theta Ortoctics

    Nice work, Ian. But I always enjoy the American singular "math" as oppose to the English "maths". Along with "fanny packs".
     
  11. Brent Jarrett DPM

    Brent Jarrett DPM Active Member

    Re: Theta Ortoctics

    I won't dignify your little circle jirk with anything of significane, but sufice it to say that you know as little about human biomechanics as you so about the trig youi though you learned. Please do speak with ED, or Dr Glaser as those of us who respect our resarch colegues, refer to him. What he has to say may be of interest to you... Brent A Jarrett DPM
     
  12. DaVinci

    DaVinci Well-Known Member

    Re: Theta Ortoctics

    So in other words, like Ed, you can not defend the claims that you make for your product. If you put information in the public domain or make claims for a product that are not supported, expect it to get ridiculed. Or do you actually have the research to back it up. If so, please share it.
     
  13. Brent Jarrett DPM

    Brent Jarrett DPM Active Member

    I am fully aware of the position taken by my podiatric colegues, relative to my research, dr rothbarts research, dr glasers research and anyone who actually understands the role of orthotics in in altering human function.

    I am acutely aware of the fact that even physicians who I have published award winning papers with won't open their mind sufficient to actually address the imortant elements of my research.

    Bot of my web sites http://www.pcopco.com and http://www.theta-orthotics.com are designed to help motivate the lay public to let me help them, even when often many of my colegues have failed, no more no less. There is only one page on my site , that is not accesable to the general public, that is written for physicians. http://www.pcopco.com/orthotics.html It describes only the basic theory behind my research. Clinical documentation with more than 10 thousand office and internet patients will be made available when the time is right.

    None the less if a competent physician had any intent to learn the basics they could by reading almost 100 pages on my two sites. When the intent is to deny, it wouldn't matter, what or where, or how, I published my research, those in the Podiatry-arena CIRCLE, wouldn't be capable of anything more than a JIRK type response.

    I have observed the unprofessional approach of your group on previous topics, and to paraphrase a biblical quote, NOT a productive effort to cast pearls before swine. Brent jarrett DPM
     
  14. Re: Theta Ortoctics

    Were you an English major before attending podiatry school, Brent??
     
  15. Brett I´m not big on titles and not really got anything to do with repest I could call you Dr with much less, so Brett in all due respect if you make a claim that your device is 400 % more help than any other orthotic device you are looking for trouble.
     
  16. Re: Theta Ortoctics

    When I let people here in the USA know that you guys call them "bum bags", that is always good for a chuckle also. The English language is fascinating....too bad that not many of my US podiatric colleagues have much respect or gift for using it properly.
     
  17. Well blow me down. Dr jarrett! Hello to you.

    Firstly, let me apologise if the tone of any of my remarks offended you. Had I known you would happen by, I'd have been more moderate.

    Secondly, let me rephrase in more considered terms.

    Your website, which claims a lot of research, contains not a whiff of it. Just to be clear Brent, an opinion you dreamt up over your frosties and tried out on a few patients is not research. What it contains instead is a wide selection of unsupported claims and unsubstantiated opinion masquerading as fact. Some have been shown to be flat out untrue by real research. Others, like the claim that the theraputic benefit doubles with every 5 degrees, are arrant nonsense.

    You may claim that the discepancy between your views and everyone elses are because you know better. However were we to take one of your claims and discuss it, we could provide considerable research evidence to support our position. You could not. If you had the integrity to do this, we would see, but you won't.

    The nature of these claims leads one to one of three conclusions.

    1. You are right and the international body of expert opinion represented here AND the available research is wrong.

    2. You think you are right because of a profound lack of knowledge.

    3. You know you are making unsubstantiated claims which are contrary to best evidence, but don't care.

    If you were in the uk I'd be reporting you to the advertising standards agency to take you to task for the statements in your website which are straight out false. Since you are not, I can merely tell you.

    If you have the integrity and courage to attempt to support you claims, pick one and show us your reasoning. Perhaps the claim about inverting the foot producing like degree of rotation in the leg would be a good place to start in light of recent publication ( which I'm certain you've not read).

    If not, then by all means slink off, and take my contempt with you.

    Respectfully

    Robert Isaacs

    ps, it's jerk, not jirk
     
  18. Peter

    Peter Well-Known Member

    Re: Theta Ortoctics

     
  19. Brett whats the theta angle if you want to pronate the foot or is pronation still bad. Also is pronation still pronation or the Ed Glaser "pronation" the one you refer to in your document as you claim he understands foot biomechanics and the role of orthotics and others don´t.

    It all gets quite confusing when podiatrists take international recognised biomechanically terms and change them to sell a product, no wonder biomechanists look at some of the **** thats written by Pods and shake their heads.
     
  20. Brent Jarrett DPM

    Brent Jarrett DPM Active Member

    Robert,

    Thank you for bringing biomechanics into this discussion for the first time.

    I know you don’t want to hear this but the answer is #1. Fact is that many other researchers understand parts of what I have learned, including more than 100 of them in the patent literature. I suspect that you have not read their publications. There are even a few research physicians who understand a great deal of what I have learned. At least one of them has been banned from you podiatry-arena for expressing his views. Unfortunately most physicians know very little of what I have learned. You should know that every major understanding in science was preceded by a group of experts who did not understand what would one day be common knowledge in all of the basic texts.

    Concerning the relationship between supination of the foot and rotation of the leg, I am confident that you understand human biomechanics enough to agree that supination of the foot is related to external rotation of the leg, and that Pronation of the foot is associated with internal rotation of the leg. Apparently where you disagree with me is that there is a one to one relationship between supination of the foot and external rotation of the leg.

    When a pointer is placed on the patella it is easy to observe that Pronation of the foot results in internal rotation of the leg, while supination of the foot results in external rotation of the leg.

    One can easily document that approximately 20 degrees of internal rotation of the patella is present when the foot is maximally pronated, with the medial arch flat on the ground. When I place an orthotic that is quantified at 40 degrees varus, under the weight bearing foot, one can document visually that the patella is 20 degrees externally rotated from the midline. Basic math defines that as a one to one relationship between varus angulation of an orthotic and rotation of the tibia. This same relationship can be documented with radiograph markers.

    The animated photo at this link may help illustrate my point. http://www.pcopco.com/html/arch_collapse.html

    As you probably suspect it is in fact a little more complicated than I have explained in this brief description. You possibly understand that the leg can be externally rotated with a wedge that supinates the STJ and by supination the entire foot with a vertically directed force under the first met. Without going into detail in this note, planar dominance of the STJ, and phasic stage of gait, along with the quantified angle of wedges in both the medial longitudinal arch and under the first metatarsal all effect this relationship.

    Thank you for being the first of your group to question my work in a manner consistent with the titles you all put after your names. I can honor your legitimate questions about the unsubstantiated claims I make on my web sites, and I definitely expect and understand your doubts. Brent
     
  21. Brent Jarrett DPM

    Brent Jarrett DPM Active Member

    Michael,

    Your questions are not as clear as Roberts, could you please restructure your question, and I will be happy to try and answer. Thanks Brent
     
  22. I've just spotted something on the website.

    They're mail order!!! They send out an impression box and a questionnaire!

    For shame!

    Here's fun. No assessment is made of the position of rotation of the leg. If foot position and leg rotation are 1:1 (as claimed) and someone starts off with a wb internal rotation of 10 degrees (pretty usual) will they not end up with a leg 30 degrees externally rotated?!

    What could possibly go wrong.

    Is there no regulation of advertising on that side of the lake?
     
  23. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    Please do not by get facts wrong and make claims about something you know nothing about. NO ONE has been banned from Podiatry Arena for expressing views. Many have been banned for not adhereing to the rules and guidelines that everyone agrees to when they join here.

    However, if I made a mistake in banning someone for expressing their views as opposed to breaking the rules they agreed to, by all means point this out and it will be remedied if you are right.
     
  24. Ok Brett,

    Is Pronation bad?

    How do you work out the theta angles if you want to pronate the foot but this will depend on the answer to question 1.

    Is your pronation term the same as Ed Glasers as he uses pronation differently and I watched a video where he explained how we all had it wrong, as you see Ed as a leader in Podiatric biomechancis which pronation are you using the internationally recognised term or the sole supports term.

    I assume your meaning STJ pronation as pronation, correct me if I´m wrong on this.
     
  25. Likewise.

    Shall we do this in a civilised way then, you and I?

    Lets stay with the rotation thing. Its a good place to start.

    The relationship between frontal plane motion in the foot and transverse plane rotation in the leg is indeed a little more complex, having also a great deal to do with axial inclination.

    However we DO have research which invetigates this.

    Consider this study (which inclines the entire foot on a platform, pure theta)

    and this one

    Which showed a relationship, but an small and unpredictable one.

    These (and other) studies (sometimes) confirm what we might imagine by considering the triplanar nature of the sub talar joint, but show that the relationship is CERTAINLY not equal, and depends a great deal on other factors.

    That'll do for starters (best to stick to one point at a time).

    Regards
    Robert:drinks

    PS,
    Reference them and I shall.


    Which showed a relationship, bu
     
  26. DaVinci

    DaVinci Well-Known Member

    And do not forget that even though the calcaneus and tibia are coupled via the STJ joint, pronation and supination of the foot does not drive tibial rotation, its actually the other way around: tibial internal and external rotation drives foot pronation and supination (at least that is what the research evidence says).
     
  27. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
    And do not also forget all those feet that pronate more when you use a medial wedge or a medially posted orthotic or an anti-pronatory orthotic or whatever you want to call them.
     
  28. I'm still not 100% sold on that Davinci, whatever the reverse kinematics tell us. But thats a whole other thread ;).

    Another inconveniant truth!

    But lets keep it simple for now.
     
  29. Brent Jarrett DPM

    Brent Jarrett DPM Active Member

    Robert,

    Another fair question. I am sure if you focus more on understanding what I do, instead of attempting to discredit what I do, you can come up with some realy good questions.

    If the knee is only 10 degree internally rotated, that implies that the foot is supinated 10 degree of the horizontal plane. An orthotic that is 10 degrees would produce no additional rotation of the leg as it would only maintain the 10 degrees of supination.

    If the knee is on midline, the medial arch (STJ) is supinated 20 degrees off the horizontal, and a 20 degree wedge in the mla will produce no additional rotation of the leg.

    A 40 degree wedge in the mla will produce a leg that is 20 degrees externally rotated independent of the starting position of the foot and the leg.

    A wedge placed under the first met will act somewhat differently than one under the STJ. This is because there is a "normal 20 degree inclination of the apex of the mla as described by Hicks in one of his first anatomical articles, where as the first and 5th metatarsals function on the horizontal plane.

    I understand this might confuse you, it did me for many years.

    Fact: I have documented this research for 20 years and 4 thousand clinical patients, and 10 more years and 6 thousand patients on the internet. When I was first trying to find the way to quantify THETA, I would wake at all times of the night in addition to processing this information during all waking hours. Anyone you know that has spent that much time on one research topic.

    You may not have an appreciation for my basic intelect, but you have to respect the serious time I have been studying orthotic design and its relationship to foot and leg function.

    By the way, even though biomechanical aligment begins at the foot, the real important questions involve the function of the body above the leg. Brent
     
  30. Brent Jarrett DPM

    Brent Jarrett DPM Active Member

    you are correct the the tibia drives the need to pronate, as I personally believe the the crux of the problem in the structure of the tibia, another topic your boys like to DISS on. In fact orthotics mearly comensate for this angular deformity in the tibia that you you have all denied in this very forum just a few month back. brent
     
  31. DaVinci

    DaVinci Well-Known Member

    Thats not what the research shows. It is the tibia that actually makes the foot pronate during gait.
     
  32. Oh I am brimming over with questions ;).

    So, If I understand you correctly, You work on the basis that the rearfoot and forefoot operate flat on the ground, and the arch at 20 degrees to the ground. So a 10 degree or 20 degree arch will not invert the foot, but a 2 degree rearfoot, 22 degree midfoot and 2 degree forefoot will invert the whole foot by 2 degrees. Am I pretty much there?

    Ok, I don't agree, but I can see the logic. We can move on to the effect of wedging on kinematics later. In context of this, what do you say to that research I quoted you? If what you say is true, the 20 degree inclination of the rear and forefoot should have resulted a 20 degree rotation of the leg. It didn't. Why not?

    With respect Brent, we've heard this before about a wide variety of claims. This is not research, its highly subjective, unvalidated, uncontrolled, unblinded observation. Whereas the data which I shall be bringing to the debate will all be properly formatted, research published in peer review journals.

    If I told you that in the last 3000 patients I'd seen I observed that inversion of the leg produced no rotation of the leg what would you say?
     
  33. Brent Jarrett DPM

    Brent Jarrett DPM Active Member

    how can anyone make a science bases statement when they can not even define the treatment they employ let alone quantify the treatment the apply.

    If you were studying the effect of a chemical compound and you did not quantify the functional amount of the drug youi could make no statements about its effect. IE. if sometime s you used 200 mg (medial wedge) and other time 800 (medially posted orthotic) and other time 1600 mg (antipronatory orthotic) it would be impossible to evaluate the effects of the drug.

    Until I quantified Theta I was as confused as you...brent
     
  34. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
    How many references to research publications would you like that show that some feet pronate more when on an orthotic designed to stop then pronating? (on average foot orthotics do invert the foot)
     
  35. Brett you may have missed these.
     
  36. Brent Jarrett DPM

    Brent Jarrett DPM Active Member

    I would say that the orthotics you use did not have enough correction to supinate the foot any more that it functions with out the orthotics, which is the case with most prescription orthoics because the most correction I have ever measured is 27 degrees in ED's orthoics (when he get it right) and 2o degrees in most prescription orthotics. brent
     
  37. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
    So why do they work without this "enough correction"? Why do the patients get better?e
     
  38. Brent Jarrett DPM

    Brent Jarrett DPM Active Member

    I have only heard Dr Glaser lecture twice, and although he has understanding beyond most pods. he has not quantified the functional part of orthotic design so his basic explanation of what is happening is week, and full of rehotoric.

    Pronation of the foot is necessary to adapt to irruglar surfaces, but how much is necessary for function is not yet clear. Many patients, including myself, can not tollerate any significant pronation or it will produce symptoms. I do believe that optimal alignment above the knee is dependent on the knee being approx 20 degrees externally rotated however. brent
     
  39. C'mon boys, let the man follow one line of questions. Otherwise we lose clarity.

    To restate,

     
  40. Brent Jarrett DPM

    Brent Jarrett DPM Active Member

    If they do not externally rotate the tibia they will have NO effect on knee knee, or more proximal, symptoms. If they do not supinate the foot from where it is without them they will have no effect on the foot. If the supinate the foot , and externally rotate the leg JUST a little they will have minimal or no observable effect on any symptoms...brent
     
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