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Foot pronation and knee pain

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by NewsBot, Jun 27, 2006.

  1. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1

    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    A prospective biomechanical study of the association between foot pronation and the incidence of anterior knee pain among military recruits.
    J Bone Joint Surg Br. 2006 Jul;88(7):905-8
     
  2. Admin2

    Admin2 Administrator Staff Member

  3. Admin2

    Admin2 Administrator Staff Member

    This older study is consistent with the above finding:
    Comparison of foot pronation and lower extremity rotation in persons with and without patellofemoral pain.
    Foot Ankle Int. 2002 Jul;23(7):634-40
     
  4. Atlas

    Atlas Well-Known Member

    No doubt clinically, that addressing biomechanical foot issues often assists anterior knee pain. I should add, that low-dye taping, for instance, can often predict whether it there is a 'connection' for that particular patient, and that particular problem.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2006
  5. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
    Relationship Between Static Posture and Rearfoot Motion During Walking in
    Patellofemoral Pain Syndrome: Effect of a Reference Posture for Gait
    Analysis

    J Am Podiatr Med Assoc 96(4): 323–329, 2006
     
  6. NewsBot

    NewsBot The Admin that posts the news.

    Articles:
    1
    A Prospective Study on Gait-related Intrinsic Risk Factors for Patellofemoral Pain.
    Thijs Y, Tiggelen DV, Roosen P, Clercq DD, Witvrouw E.
    Clin J Sport Med. 2007 Nov;17(6):437-445.
     
  7. Bruce Williams

    Bruce Williams Well-Known Member

    If I am understanding this correctly, then I would tend to agree from the clinical data I have collected.

    I tend to see anterior knee pain in patients with a LLD, short, on the same limb, or an early knee flexion on that side.

    The early knee flexion can be on the long limb side, if that is the selected compensation for the opposite limb being short.

    The early knee flexion can also be on teh short limb side if the MTJ is stable and the patient has AJE. If the AJE cannot be compensated for at the MTJ, the next joint to go is usually the knee.

    I would consider the observation that the heel strike is in a less pronated position and the foot rolling over more on the lateral side to be a supinated foot position compensation regularly seen in AJE or short side LLD compensations.

    Do you have a full copy Admin??? You know I love you! ;-):drinks
    Sorry I'll miss you in San Diego. Drink one for me as I'll be thinking of you all!
    Bruce
     
  8. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
    The paradox:
    1. Clinically we use foot orthoses to treat rearfoot pronation to help patellofemoral pain syndrome
    2. Two RCT's with OK methodology show that when we do that, they help (ie Eng et al 1993; and another big good one from U of Q, thats still coming, but we got a glimpse of the results at SMA mtg)
    3. The cross sectional and prospective studies (see above) are not showing a link between rearfoot pronation and patellofemoral pain
    4. Don't figure :confused: :confused: :confused:

    (Bruce - Check your email)
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2007
  9. Bruce Williams

    Bruce Williams Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the papers Craig. I see why you are confused re: historical teachings and past study results. But, from what I see with in-shoe pressure data, they are exactly right.

    The faster peak loading of the 4th mpj would indicate to me early heel loss of pressure meaning short limb side and or AJE and a supinated foot strike and positioning.

    This is futher confirmed to me by the lateral heel stike and prolonged lateral CoP.

    Finally, don't discount pronation in the above equation. Just because a foot has AJE and / or LLD short, and may appear to supinate from contact to early midstance does not mean that there is not late midstance prolonged pronation in effect! The study states that there was a large delay in the PFP group moving the CoP from lateral to medial in the forefoot. AJE and / or LLD will lead to a weakness of the Peroneals as Howard has shown in his papers. That will in turn lead to FnHL and potential over action of the supinatory muscles such as the Anterior Tibialis and Posterior tibialis.

    So, don't despair. There is still late midstance pronation in that final study, but the LLD / AJE is just as important to address, if not more so!
    Great posts!:)

    Bruce
     
  10. Stanley

    Stanley Well-Known Member

    Bruce, I see you are using the F-Scan to determine leg length, but aren't you determing functional leg length? Do you correlate your finding with a postural exam, and if so which ones. I ask this so that everyone who reads your posts will be on the same page with you.


    Good point. Clinically, when you see a patient with medial and lateral pathology (supinatory and pronatory), then you know it is a short leg with equinus.

    I agree.



    Regards,

    Stanley
     
  11. CraigT

    CraigT Well-Known Member

    36 recruits out of 84 got PFJ pain....:eek:
    I would say a high risk factor would be doing officier training in Belgium!
    I would say they have to look at the training and footwear...
     
  12. musmed

    musmed Active Member

    Dear Craig

    What is rearfoot prontation and how do you diagnose it?

    Musmed

     
  13. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
    I was refering to the studies above - each used a different measure of "pronation".
     
  14. musmed

    musmed Active Member

    MMMMAAAATTTEEEEEE

    I am still in the dark.

    what studies and where can I see them.

    overpronated and underloved!

    musmed
     
  15. Bruce Williams

    Bruce Williams Well-Known Member

    Stanley;

    I assess for LLD by checking the ASIS and PSIS in stance. I will have the patients stand in RCSP an NCSP as well to see if the pelvis attempts to balance.

    I also check for Peroneal weakness and AJE one side more than another.

    I also will check for shoulder height comparison, watch for one arm swinging more than another, check to see if one foot is pronating more than the other on stance, etc.

    I don't put a lot of stock into a difference between functional and structrural LLD. The body will functionally adapt for either one and you need to be able to identify the problem, no matter the cause, to treat it.

    I know many people disagree with me on this, but no matter what you do for core strengthening, manipulations, AK, etc, if the foot continues to adapt and cannot hold the changes you want it will always revert to what it was doing before.

    This I can see on F-scan and that is why I treat most of these from the ground up. ONce the prescription is correct in the orthosis, you won't need to manipulate anymore and the strength will return to the peroneals, etc.

    My opinion.
    Bruce
     
  16. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
    Every cross-sectional study that has looked at the prevalance of "pronated" feet in those with and without patellofemoral pain have found no differences (eg Comparison of foot pronation and lower extremity rotation in persons with and without patellofemoral pain. Foot Ankle Int. 2002 Jul;23(7):634-40) and every prospective study of risk factors for patellofemoral pain found that a "pronated" foot did not increase the risk (there are a few more than the couple of abstracts posted above in this thread; eg A Prospective Study on Gait-related Intrinsic Risk Factors for Patellofemoral Pain. Thijs Y, Tiggelen DV, Roosen P, Clercq DD, Witvrouw E. Clin J Sport Med. 2007 Nov;17(6):437-445.).

    We could debate what the exact measure each study used to determine "pronation" (we could have a whole thread on this).

    The point I am trying to make is that we have all this data showing no relationship between foot "pronation" and patellofemoral pain, yet we have 2 good RCT's (one published and one coming) that show when you use foot orthoses to treat rearfoot "pronation" in those with patellofemoral pain, then they get beater ....don't figure :confused:
     
  17. Stanley

    Stanley Well-Known Member

    Craig,

    I agree with this. In 1980, I had Professor Karl Klein lecture at a seminar. Afterwards, I disussed Chondromalacia and pronation with him. He said “pronation increases the Q angle” and he demonstrated it. He sat down with his feet on the ground and adducted his femur. Sure enough, the tibial tuberosity moved relatively laterally. It took me time looking at this and knowing that pronation internally rotates the tibia to realize that what he showed me was not pronation, but rather a knee movement which consists of external rotation and abduction of the tibia. When the knee compensates we get knee pathology, and when the subtalar joint compensates we get overuse of the posterior tibial muscle/tendon or sinus tarsitis.
    Orthoses work by stopping the need to compensate at either joint.
    I hope this clears it up.

    Regards,

    Stanley
     
  18. musmed

    musmed Active Member


    Craig

    Still Lost... What is rearfoot pronation and how do you diagnose it,or measure it, or what ever, is the good eye ball look the owner of the information?

    still using L/A and getting older

    but not dumber?

    PaulC.musmed
     
  19. Daniel Bagnall

    Daniel Bagnall Active Member

    The point I am trying to make is that we have all this data showing no relationship between foot "pronation" and patellofemoral pain, yet we have 2 good RCT's (one published and one coming) that show when you use foot orthoses to treat rearfoot "pronation" in those with patellofemoral pain, then they get beater ....don't figure

    Hi Graig,

    Would you happen to have the name of the RCT (and where this can be accessed) that has already been published regarding what you were mentioning about treating RF pronation and PFP improvement?

    Cheers,

    Dan
     
  20. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
    The publicshed RCT with methodology that is ok is this one:
    The effect of soft foot orthotics on three-dimensional lower-limb kinematics during walking and running JJ Eng and MR Pierrynowski PHYS THER Vol. 74, No. 9, September 1994, pp. 836-844
    The other good and big one is Bill Vicenzino's that is still being analysed, but we got a look at early data from Bill a month ago and the orthotics were better than placebo.
     
  21. admin

    admin Administrator Staff Member

    The posts in this thread on the ASIS and PSIS measurements and foot function have been moved to their own discussion here.
     
  22. Daniel Bagnall

    Daniel Bagnall Active Member

    Thanks for that Graig.

    Despite the studies you have suggested, what are your current thoughts on the reasearch carried by Beno M. Nigg re: Shoe & Orthotics Knee Joint Loading (2007)? From my understading, the study made mention that there was no real difference between PFO's and OTC orthotics. Furthermore, it also concluded that, with orthotic intervention, Knee moments are often increased, results are unexected and are generally not systematic.

    I haven't read the article below you suggested yet, however, what would they have done differently from Beno M. Nigg's reasearch to suggest that their are improvments in PFPS, with treating RF pronation (using soft orthotics)?

    The effect of soft foot orthotics on three-dimensional lower-limb kinematics during walking and running JJ Eng and MR Pierrynowski PHYS THER Vol. 74, No. 9, September 1994, pp. 836-844

    Regards,

    Dan
     
  23. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
    Beno Nigg and a lot of others have done a lot of kinematic and kinetic work on the effects of foot orthoses on knee joint mechanics. NONE of the changes described by those studies have yet been linked to outcomes.
     
  24. Daniel Bagnall

    Daniel Bagnall Active Member

    Graig, I would appreciate it if you could just elborate a little further.

    Beno Nigg's research also discusses he concept of muscle tuning, and emphasises the importance of "strong small muscles" to reduce joint pain, increase joint stability and reduce joint loading. Basically, he suggests that another solution or alternative to the treatment of PFPS, is to train and strengthen the smaller intrinsic muscles.

    Would you care to comment on this also?

    Regards,

    Dan
     
  25. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
    There is plenty of documentation on what different sorts of foot orthotics do to different kinematic and kinetic parameters (eg as you mentioned, Nigg showed the changes in frontal plane knee moments; other have shown changes in hip motion; other have shown changes in tibial rotation; etc etc) .... but they are all based in the lab. For patellofemoral pain, we have absolutly no idea which of the kinematic and kinetic parameters are important to change in order to get a good clinical outcome. We have some good ideas what might be important, but they remain untested.

    I am familiar with Nigg's muscle tuning concepts (in fact I was just writing about it in a powerpoint as I got the email about your message just posted). It is an interesting concept and he is probably right, and the period of "instability" he advocates may well increase joint stability and he has shown it can reduce joint loading. BUT, just like the kinematic and kinetic stuff, we have no idea if a change any of those parameters actually affects clinical outcome.

    This has been quite a bit of discussion on this today at PFOLA.
     
  26. Bruce Williams

    Bruce Williams Well-Known Member

    Craig;
    I'm certain you have this paper as well. I thought the abstract might be interesting for others. It seems to confirm the kinematic findings of the paper that started this discussion. I find it confirmatory for a lot of what I see in-shoe as well.

    Cheers!
    Bruce



    Journal of the American Podiatric Medical Association
    Volume 93 Number 6 481-484 2003
    Copyright © 2003 American Podiatric Medical Association

    Relationship Between the Subtalar Joint Inclination Angle and the Location of Lower-Extremity Injuries
    Michael R. Pierrynowski, PhD *, Eric Finstad, BHSc(PT) *, Marta Kemecsey, BHSc(PT) * and Jade Simpson, BHSc(PT) *
    * Human Movement Laboratory, School of Rehabilitation Science, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.

    Corresponding author: Michael R. Pierrynowski, PhD, Human Movement Laboratory, School of Rehabilitation Science, McMaster University, 1400 Main St W, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8S 1C7.

    Abstract

    This study hypothesized that individuals who have a history of knee pain during repetitive weightbearing activities have a higher subtalar joint inclination angle than those with a history of foot pain. Study participants were selected on the basis of results of a written questionnaire that asked about the site and cause of injury and pain frequency and intensity. Pain items were graded on a 7-point Likert scale. Subjects were mainly young (18 to 32 years of age), healthy university students who had a history of knee pain (knee group) or foot pain (foot group) during weightbearing activity. Both foot and lower-leg kinematic data were used to estimate the magnitude of each participant’s subtalar joint inclination angle. These data were obtained while participants performed a series of open- and closed-kinetic-chain motions. The subtalar joint inclination angle was significantly greater for the knee group than for the foot group. The results of this study support the hypothesis that a higher subtalar joint inclination angle may predispose an individual to knee pain, and a lower subtalar joint inclination angle to foot pain. (J Am Podiatr Med Assoc 93(6): 481-484, 2003)
     
  27. gavw

    gavw Active Member


    Absolutely agree.

    My weekend reading leads me pose this: Is it possible, however, that the statistical phenomenon known as 'regression to the mean' could partly explain this?

    For example, take a patient who presents with patellofemoral pain (or indeed any condition that causes pain for that matter). Simply stated, regression to the mean says that a person who scores at the extreme end of a scale (pain scale in this case), will, for statistical reasons, score much less extremely the next time they are measured.

    See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_toward_the_mean

    This is where the level of detail in the RCT methodology is crucial: inparticular, mention of how long each subject in the trial had been suffering with patellofemoral pain, which may give some indication of the likely future course of the condition. In conducting an RCT should the subjects be asked "is the pain you are suffering now, the worst it has ever been?". If a large section of potential subjects answer 'yes', does this skew the results??

    Maybe if If we give orthoses to a patient when their pain is at its worst, then plausibly, really the only way for the pain level to go is to reduce, or at worst, stay the same.

    Don't get me wrong: I am happy to provide properly designed orthoses for knee pain and many other painful conditions of the lower limb where appropriate, but would be interested in the Arena's view on this. Does it explain the gap that C.P descibes between the research and clinical experience?

    My two cents worth-just playing devil's advocate!!
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2007
  28. musmed

    musmed Active Member

    Dear Bruce

    How does one measure this subtalar joint inclination angle?

    Thanks in advance

    Paul C.
     
  29. Bruce Williams

    Bruce Williams Well-Known Member

    Paul;
    I don't have my radiology text with me at present. The talar declination angle and the calcaneal inclinaiton angle may be a combination of this. I cannot recall at this moment.

    These are quotes from the paper.
    The subtalar joint is formed by separate articulations
    between the talus superiorly and the calcaneus inferiorly.
    1 Although the motion between the talus and
    calcaneus is complex,2 it typically has been considered
    a uniaxial joint with pronation and supination
    movements about the subtalar joint axis.3 There have
    been many attempts to locate the subtalar joint axis
    within a person’s foot using this mechanical linkage
    model. The cadaver studies of Inman4 have been widely
    cited to suggest that the mean ± SD subtalar joint
    inclination angle relative to horizontal is 42° ± 9°,
    with lower and upper bounds of 20.5° and 68.5°.The most accepted estimate of average subtalar
    joint inclination angle (42°) results in an approximately
    equal amount of frontal plane foot rotation
    (inversion/eversion) and lower-leg transverse plane
    rotation (external/internal). If a person has a lower
    subtalar joint inclination angle, more inversion/eversion
    foot rotation is associated with a fixed amount
    of external/internal lower-leg rotation. Conversely, a
    person with a high subtalar joint inclination angle
    has more lower-leg transverse plane rotation than
    frontal plane foot rotation.1 As a result of the mechanical
    relationship between the subtalar joint inclination
    angle and motion characteristics of the foot
    and lower leg (the “mitred-hinge” response),4 it has
    been postulated that a higher subtalar joint inclination
    angle predisposes an individual to knee injuries
    whereas a lower subtalar joint inclination angle pre-
    Relationship Between the Subtalar
    Joint Inclination Angle and the
    Location of Lower-Extremity Injuries
    This study hypothesized that individuals who have a history of knee pain
    during repetitive weightbearing activities have a higher subtalar joint inclination
    angle than those with a history of foot pain. Study participants
    were selected on the basis of results of a written questionnaire that
    asked about the site and cause of injury and pain frequency and intensity.
    Pain items were graded on a 7-point Likert scale. Subjects were mainly
    young (18 to 32 years of age), healthy university students who had a history
    of knee pain (knee group) or foot pain (foot group) during weightbearing
    activity. Both foot and lower-leg kinematic data were used to estimate
    the magnitude of each participant’s subtalar joint inclination angle.
    These data were obtained while participants performed a series of openand
    closed-kinetic-chain motions. The subtalar joint inclination angle was
    significantly greater for the knee group than for the foot group. The results
    of this study support the hypothesis that a higher subtalar joint inclination
    angle may predispose an individual to knee pain, and a lower subtalar
    joint inclination angle to foot pain.

    The subtalar joint inclination angle was estimated
    using a modification of the van den Bogert et al3 protocol,
    which has been shown to be reliable with a reported
    0.7° intrasubject standard error of measurement
    (SEM). Although this intrasubject SEM is small
    compared with the mean group difference (knee –
    foot = 7.1°), the intrasubject SEM was improved in
    this study by averaging each participant’s right and
    left foot subtalar joint inclination angles, measured
    twice. Theoretically, the SEM of the subtalar joint inclination
    angle for all of the participants should be
    near 0.4° (van den Bogert’s value divided by the
    square root of four measures), a value that allows us
    to confidently state that the knee group participants
    had higher subtalar joint inclination angles than the
    foot group participants.
    There are several limitations to the subtalar joint
    inclination angle measurement protocol of van den
    Bogert et al.3

    Does not seem overly exact to me, but then that was not my point in referenceing this text. My point being that knee pain is more often associated with the less pronated foot that tends towards a short limb and AJE.

    Cheers.

    Bruce
     
  30. Daniel Bagnall

    Daniel Bagnall Active Member

    Hi Paul,

    This measurement can usually be determined by referring to a plain lateral view radiograph. You then bisect the head and neck of the talus and then measure the angle in relation to the supporting surface.

    Hope this helps.

    Regards,

    Daniel Bagnall
     
  31. CraigT

    CraigT Well-Known Member

    Paul,
    I am not aware of any accurate clinical measure of this- the study that Bruce is referencing uses a quite complicated protocol to determine it. It is not something that you can go out and measure easily as far as I know. (someone correct me if I am wrong)
    The important thing is to be aware that there is variability in this axis and that this variability has a great impact on what the effect of pronatory forces and STJ motion has on the foot and leg.
    When I try to assess this I look at STJ range in a NWB position (high axis give a large amount of abduction and adduction of the foot) and get the subject to pronate both feet while weight bearing- you tend to see a relatively large amount of tibial rotation relative to the amount of inversion/eversion.
    What is perhaps most significant is that these people with a high axis STJ foot are less likely to have much medial arch lowering as the foot pronates which means to the untrained eye they are often regarded as having a 'normal' foot. It is common for them to be unaware that they have a foot which is not functioning optimally.
     
  32. musmed

    musmed Active Member

    Dear Daniel and Bruce

    Thanks for the help, but how do you do the "These data were obtained while participants performed a series of open- and closed-kinetic-chain motions."

    I am lost at present

    Paul C

    Abstract

    This study hypothesized that individuals who have a history of knee pain during repetitive weightbearing activities have a higher subtalar joint inclination angle than those with a history of foot pain. Study participants were selected on the basis of results of a written questionnaire that asked about the site and cause of injury and pain frequency and intensity. Pain items were graded on a 7-point Likert scale. Subjects were mainly young (18 to 32 years of age), healthy university students who had a history of knee pain (knee group) or foot pain (foot group) during weightbearing activity. Both foot and lower-leg kinematic data were used to estimate the magnitude of each participant’s subtalar joint inclination angle. These data were obtained while participants performed a series of open- and closed-kinetic-chain motions. The subtalar joint inclination angle was significantly greater for the knee group than for the foot group. The results of this study support the hypothesis that a higher subtalar joint inclination angle may predispose an individual to knee pain, and a lower subtalar joint inclination angle to foot pain. (J Am Podiatr Med Assoc 93(6): 481-484, 2003)
     
  33. musmed

    musmed Active Member

    Dear Craig T

    Thanks for the email.

    If what they do is so complicated, it tends to make me think its not up to scratch.

    In the subtalar joint the most important joints are the ones underneath= the calcaneus-fat, the fat-skin, the skin-whatever you are standing on. This is where the angles change.

    REgards

    Paul C from a cool 20 is sydney
     
  34. Daniel Bagnall

    Daniel Bagnall Active Member

    Dear Paul,

    Sorry, I actually misread your post when you wanted to find out how to measure the "STJ Inclination angle". I thought you said declination angle.

    I am not aware of such a measurement which is why I referred to the STJ declination angle. I am also confused as to how the study obtained these measurements in closed and open kinetic chain. It doesn't make sense to me. As far as I'm aware, you can only measure such angles utilizing radiographs. In addition, as Bruce mentioned, I don’t quite understand how the study concludes:

    I see just as many pts with knee pain who excessively pronate as I do in pts who have feet which function more normally. Unfortunately, nothing is systematic when it comes to knee pain which is why we are still trying to find the missing link.
     
  35. CraigT

    CraigT Well-Known Member

    The aim of the study was to identify the relationship between the type of injuries seen and the functional axial position of the joint. This axial position was ascertained by looking at the movement between the lower leg and the foot in several different positions. The concept is not that complicated, but the technique used to ascertain this axial position is not something that could be readily done in a normal clinic. It is not a precise measurement of the structural position of the bones that you might find with radiographs.

    What is not up to scratch??? There are many studies around that cannot be easily replicated in the average clinic... but they add greatly to the body of knowledge- I think this is actually a very important study into a concept that is completely foreign to many practitioners that are outside the Podiatry profession- the importance of STJ axis position.
     
  36. Daniel Bagnall

    Daniel Bagnall Active Member

    Hi Graig,

    Thanks for clarifying the study. So, by determining the "STJ axial position", are we then able to derive the STJ inclination angle?

    Regards,

    Daniel
     
  37. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    6
    Determining the inclination of the STJ axis in the sagittal plane is based on the assumption that the axis functions like a hinge (which is doesn't really). If we take the early work on the axis, the mean was angled 42 degrees in the sagittal plane from the transverse plane....that 42 degrees is almost 45 degrees, which means that for each degree of leg rotation in the transverse plane, there will be one degree of motion of the calcaneus in the frontal plane.

    In closed kinetic chain, ff the STJ axis is >45 degrees (ie more vertical), there will be more motion in the transverse plane (leg rotation) relative to the motion in the frontal plane (calcaneal motion). If the STJ axis is <45 degrees (ie more horizontal), there will be less motion in the transverse plane (leg rotation) relative to the motion in the frontal plane (calcaneal motion).

    For research purposes, based on the assumption of the hinge axis, its simply a matter of measuring the ratio between the total frontal place excursion of the calcaneus and the transverse plane excursion of the tibia (we did this by attaching a wand to the anterior tibia).
     
  38. musmed

    musmed Active Member

    Dear Bruce

    Over the Christmas period I will try to reproduce these thoughts in 3D radiological views and we will see what we may derive from your information.

    Thanks once again

    Paul C
     
  39. CraigT

    CraigT Well-Known Member

    Just off the topic- Daniel- why do you insist on writing 'Graig'????
    It is clearly written all over the forum that both my name and our esteemed forum moderator's name is Craig with a C...
    I don't know anyone named Graig...:confused::confused::confused:
     
  40. Daniel Bagnall

    Daniel Bagnall Active Member

    Woops, my apologies, "Craig". I'm not up to par with my typing, especially when I'm repsponding to threads in between pts.

    Sorry if I offended you in any way,

    Dan
     
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