Podiatry at a supermarket near you

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netizens

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1194404/Check-bunions-buying-onions.html

toeslayer

 

Hi All

Makes you wonder how they do it really, initial consultation, primary assessment, steralising, consumables, paying tax and insurance and still making a profit all for £18 ???

Is it me or............

Anyone from up that way got a full list of charges ??
Cheers
Derek

 

Hi All

Derek, I do believe that the article says that prices are from £18.

There is no reason to doubt that all the appropriate standards are in place and that everything is done as it should be done.

Personally I think this is a great initiative and deserves success- lets not put her down for having a bit of gumption.

The article gave podiatry a good profile and very good publicity.

Well done Catherine.

Regards
Cornmerchant

 

Hi Cornmerchant

Assuming as you say the £18 charge is the entry level ( initial visit) I find it hard to see how anyone can show a working profit with all that comes in that initial visit for £18 ??

That is why I asked if anyone had/ knew a full list of charges.

FYI I worked in Sainsburys Occ health in several stores treating staff which sainsburys funded for many years. I have experienced the management attitudes and if Shuropody think they are hard done by, I hope this girl dosen't find out the hard way that unless she makes and improvement to the store turnover / profits Sainsburys store managers are renowned for being ruthless. She will be monitored at all times in all ways to check ( they have the most sophisticated surveylance /monitoring systems going, it is quite an eye opener) she will find herself out of a job.

I wish her luck too , I just dont like the charge that is published, I feel it is nowhere near enough and I fear as time goes on she will be under pressure to cut it further by managers.

I hope I'm wrong, time will tell.

Cheers
Derek

 

Hi Derek

I am glad you are not completely negative about this initiative then .

To be fair, we know nothing about how she will be paid, whether she is employed by Sainsburys or if she justs rents out clinic space from them .

I really dont think that it will bother her whether you like her charges or not.

I wish her all the best.


Cornmerchant.

 

Up to a year to see a pod in the NHS?! Where? We are ceratainly meeting Govt targets where I am based

 

Boots couldn't make it work - why would a supermarket chain be able to?

I guess we'll wait and find out............

 

Hi Cornmerchant

About as much as your sarcasm bothers me I would imagine

It's just that those of us that charge a proper fee for our service get a bit fed up at times when the £18 fee is bandied around as the public perception of the profession imho regresses to that.But As davidh states

Derek

 

Derek

I had no idea that you understood the meaning of sarcasm.

You may live and work in an affluent area, but please do not think that you can speak for the rest of the country. I believe that Catherine has probably pitched it just right- as you say time will tell.

I do feel it may be a little bit of sour grapes on your part since , thankfully , you are not a member of SCP. When it counts, it is always the SCP that are asked to pass comment on Podiatric matters- what does that tell you?

Is there anyone else you would care to put down at present? What about poor students who cant afford to go to conference?

Cornmerchant

 

Cornmerchant - please stick to topic.

 

Apologies, that was another thread- oh, not any longer I see.

Yes david, I will stick to topic.


Cornmerchant

 

Hi cornmerchant

I also know the meaning of pathetic as well, reading your posts gives me all the practice I need in pathetic.:boxing:

I speak for no one except myself and I carry no banner for any pro body either ( unlike yourself obviously) btw don't you think it's time you dropped the grandparented bit ?? or are your really so small minded as to believe your going to change things after all this time ??

I look at the state of this profession and I'm constantly reminded of "what might have been" with unity and one voice.

But then of course we have had to tolerate people like you who have blocked that happeneing through bigotry and spite throughout.

I cant wait to retire as much as you cant wait for me to go.

So there we have it I make a post on an informed opinion your reduce it to sarcasm and bigotry as a fully paid up member of the SCP.:boohoo:

WELL DONE CORNMERCHANT, such a clever person

Cheers
D

 

Derek

I apologise, I thought you said you were worried that her charges were not adequate enough for her to make a profit, and undermined the profession? I must be wrong then.

I never mentioned grandparented- is there a difference?

The state of this profession is partly due to the private trainers producing FHPs who claim to be the same as Pods.

I cannot believe you opinion was informed since you do not know the facts.

A pathetic but clever( your words)

Cornmerchant

 

Cornmerchant

I refuse to be drawn into an FHP bashing debate by you or anyone else.

If that is what you want copy and take it back to your troll site for the delectation of others of your kind.

I actually Said

But , many of us try to raise public perception of this profession and that includes giving a professional service at a professional fee. The two are I'm afraid inextricably linked.

Only we earn a lot more than you by the sound of it

Not going there .

If you are aware of and FHP / Podiatry Assistant claiming to be a Podiatrist I'm sure you are aware of the correct procedure, and it has no bearing whatsoever on this thread as admin asked stick to the thread please

Puts me a bit in front of you in the workings of sainsburys I'll wager??

Of course you being the oracle in all matters please fill in the detail to which I have obviously no knowledge please.

You may find this an opportunity to parade your anti FHP flag but it has a very serious implication for all IPP's.

Every major town has a sainsburys and if the fee structure is set too low that will carry on to the rest. Personally having been on PP for a long time I KNOW how much I HAVE to charge to run a practice properly. £18 dosen't do it because it wont cover the overall expenses ( or will leave you with less than the minimum wage) so you will become a busy fool or bust.

Just my take on it.

Cheers
D

 

Derek

Thank goodness you dont want an argument, I would never keep up!

As I said , neither you nor I know the facts even with your experience of Sainsburys which by your admission is a little out of date and referred to the treatment of staff and not customers, therefore we will have to wait and see.

I did not start an argument about FHP merely answered your statement with my opinion for which I apologise. Though I would agree that it is the grandparented who normally charge the greater rates in my area.

I cannot believe you feel that those of us in PP could be threatened by this initiative-Shuropody doesn't seem to be posing a threat. As David said, Boots couldn't make it work. Sainsburys will attract a particular niche in the market, it wont affect most of us already established unless we are not doing the job to the patients satisfaction.

I would not presume to know it all so this is purely my opinion.

Cornmerchant.

 

Cornmerchant

An opinion to which you are entitled as am I.

We will as you say have to wait and see.

cheers
Derek

 

What a gay bit of banter!

Lucky you! We're certainly not! Haven't for as long as I can remember come to think of it!

But never fear, soon they will probably cut the access criteria again and we will once again be able to meet the 18 week wait. Until they cut funding again, lose staff, cut the access criteria again and so on. :sinking:

By my projection in another 10 years we will treat 1.5 patients (amputee), have 23 managers and 0.000001 wte clinical staff.

Got any jobs going where you are Hannahboss? I'm no trouble as an employee honest. I've no opinions to speak of, shy from conflict and argument.

Sorry all. Really bad day.

Robert

 

18 week wait? We have new patient waits of 2 weeks, even in specialist clinics! How do we do it I hear you all cry. Simple. We put about a rumour that there is no longer a podiatry dept in the county. No, actually we have 'special' top-secret paperwork and mystical phraseology - such as 'Episode of care (end of...)' and we have specially encoded and excruciatingly cryptic data inputing which translates every outcome as 'discharged'.

Actually I haven't a clue how we did it, but we do have a lovely boss who's sending us all to Boot Camp for the next two days.

Sweet, eh?

Hannah

 

Interesting article.

My prices start lower than £18 but that doesn't include any assessment, absolutely nothing but the simplest of nail cuts. Good marketing by Sainsburys.

Looks like they are rolling out plans to place themselves in the market for tendering for services once NHS commissioning commences.

Your future employer may be the likes of Shuropody or a supermarket? Interesting times.

GB

 

Hi George

My understanding is that EVERY patient seen by a podiatrist on the initial visit has a primary assessment which must be documented

Has something changed from the podiatrists perspective with initial visits?

I know it can be done by FHP's/ Pod assistants which is one reason why they can "go in cheap" as the time element per visit is shorter ,but pods are bound by regulation are they not ?.
Cheers
Derek

 

Derek

Not only is assessment an expectation of HPC registration, so is diagnosis and formulation of an appropriate treatment plan.

I should have followed "good marketing" with a question mark.

Every patient who enters my practice goes through assessment, diagnosis and treatment planning. This comes at a cost far higher than any £18 but if I marketed myself at providing "treatment from £18"this would of course be misleading.

If someone reported me to the HPC for such inappropriate advertising, I would then receive a letter from the HPC questioning my conduct.

I wonder if Sainsburys are aware of this?

Like I said, interesting times.

GB

 

George

Sorry I'm confused here.

In one post you state

In the next post you say

Which is it George ??

Seems strange to me that you make such a bold statement in the first instance and when challenged you revert ??

The trouble is George as I'm sure you well know is you let the tail start to wag the dog and undercutting becomes the priority, then corners have to be cut to maintain to maintain the low fee level.

I do not believe that £18 can cover a proper service WHEREVER you are in this country unless you want to work for national minimum wage or less in the net value.

I personally do not have a problem and have an established practice so I am not worried about Sainsburys or anyone else,albeit having an insight into the workings of Sainsburys I feel they are perhaps the biggest threat of all the companies involved.
I just feel the advertising power should this take off will hurt any pod coming out into private practice ( perhaps after losing a job in the NHS )and limit their earning potential.

Cheers
Derek

 

Derek

No bold statements anywhere. I didn't notice the challenge, bless you.

Post assessment, post diagnosis, post treatment plan I charge a lot less than £18for a nail cut that takes me approximately 5 minutes. I provide a professional service with appropriate clinical standards according to my professional body. The HPC do not set clinical standards.

If my treatment plan states "only requires a nail cut", then I charge accordingly after the patient has undergone assessment, diagnosis, treatment plan and initial treatment at a much higher fee than they will subsequently pay

Same goes for a redressing if my assessment and diagnosis states the treatment plan requires a follow up appointment to check on that interdigital corn with aseptic breakdown.

So in an hour I may assess a new patient, redress a dodgy corn, cut a couple of sets of simple toenails. This brings in a good turnover. It is how I organise the treatment of my patients post assessment, diagnosis and treatment planning. It suits my practice. It may not suit yours.

But my prices do start at less than £18 but what for??? I do not market my practice with the least price I charge nor do I market by price at all just the standards I achieve.

Conversly this is how supermarkets market. This should be the issue, not what the charges appear to be.

I do not understand your problem with me.

GB

 

George

I don't have a problem with you at all , I think your probably a very nice chap

It's just as you have in the past been such a tinker in picking me up on the least mistake I have made in text ,I thought I would give you a taste of what it's like

I'm sure you do as you say and charge a proper fee for the initial appointment and then what you want after but that was'nt how it was in your first post but now you have clarified your position and actually agreed with me on the subject matter of fees we will let it rest there.

Keep Well
Cheers
Derek

 

Derek,

You have missed the point completely and utterly...

How would an HPC registrant fair if Sainsbury's promote their service via the lowest fee charged in a competitive market, misleading the service user entirely?

This is what all my posts have been about - not fees.

Doh! :bang:

Never mind. Must put myself down for a CPD course in communication skills...

GB

 

George

Yes George perhaps you should

Cheers

Derek

 

George

You make a very good point . With the wording as it stands, Mrs Smith could come in and say "I will have one of the £18 does please! " . When you tell her it will be £30 for the first visit, she will probably say she doesnt want it then!

To be fair though, the article does not give the actual advertising format so it could be the journalists precis of the situation that is misleading. Maybe Catherine could at some point let us hear it from the horses mouth so to speak.

Incidentally George, I like your business model- I run my practise in a similar way, I frequently scale down the price for simple nail cuts and dressings- and consequently the time for these appointments-you do not lose money in the long run and patients appreciate your flexibilty.


Cornmerchant

 

ummmmmmmmmm Having joined the arena today, and this being the first forum I have looked at, I must admit to being slightly shocked.

I had expected a much more professional conversation, but there seems to be a lot of "bickering" Some interesting points have been raised, but the tone and attitude is not what I was expecting.

 

CJ Hopper meet DTT.

DTT meet CJ Hopper.

CJ, this is the main reason why, until this week, I haven't posted on any of these forums in about 3months. There seems an element of unprofessional behaviour creeping in, point scoring one could say.

Have fun,

GB

 

Hi CJ

George you should be ashamed putting a newbie on offer like that, disgraceful behaviour for an experienced poster

Can I offer a word of advice please?

Firstly welcome to Pod A, you have found what is the best learning portal around which covers all aspects of our profession.

The academic side is there for the taking and consumption and there is also the political side which as with any politics ,personalities and loyalties are evident in posts. You will find some full blown rows on this site some resulting in threads being closed, posters banned and enemies made .

BUT find that out for yourself CJ look at the site and learn from it but be aware there are some mixers and fixers like George who will use your innocence as a pawn in their argument (or in this case defense )of an appalling statement ie,

Which is actually an admission of NOT being in safe effective practice by not giving a primary assessment. Dosen't come much more unprofessional than that imho.

Just be careful you are not used as a deflection from the facts ( not an uncommon tactic by those under pressure and with no valid defense) and sit back enjoy the forums then when you have perhaps more experience of the "way of things" then come back and get involved

Enjoy the site

Cheers
Derek

 

Hey cj.

Welcome to the happy world of the arena.

Some things you should know. This is a friendly place (by and large). You may freely gorge at the trough of knowledge and ask anything you wish of the greatest podiatric minds of our generation and expect a courteous reply. This is quite a priviledge!

Also bear in mind that this is a forum for debate. This implies disagreement. Sometimes these disagreements can become passionate.

Personally I'd have it no other way. Apathy is far more deadly to a profession than contention. But it does mean that if you want to play, you need a thick skin!

I've crossed verbal swords with del (dtt) more than once. We've disagreed, sometimes violently, and now he's a very close friend. We STILL disagree on a few things but it's all with love. For example hestill thinks arnica works despite the fact that I've told him repeatedly that it's a buncha tree hugging hippy rubbish! ;-)

Never had the pleasure of a disagreement with George but I'm sure I will

So don't take it to heart! Enjoy the debate! Rejoice that there are those who feel passionatly enough to argue.

And at the end of the day if you REALLY don't like it, then don't linger!


Shalom
Robert

 

Derek

In your opinion I am in breach of fitness to practice according to the HPC.

Email me and I will provide you with my HPC registration number then you can provide them with all the evidence they require to take me to a fitness to practice hearing.

Can't have trash like me bringing the profession into disrepute now can we?

Cheers,

GB

 

Guys,

Cool it please.

Hotly debating Standards, based on an £18 fee which may or may not in fact be accurate

Bit pointless don't you think?

If they've priced it right the business will work. If they've priced it wrong it won't.
Either way it will do practitioners in the immediate vicinity no good at all.

Davidh

 

David

With the greatest respect, Derek has a major problem with fee structures and anyone that does not fall into line must be falling short of clinical standards. I think the debate was worthwhile actually, good points were made about the marketing , regardless of the prices.
It is ridiculous to take statements out of context as he did , just to impress a new poster.

Cornmerchant

 

I agree.

Since you insist on sniping, even after being warned nicely, may I remind you that on post 9 of this thread you took things out of context enough to say:

" I do feel it may be a little bit of sour grapes on your part since , thankfully , you are not a member of SCP. When it counts, it is always the SCP that are asked to pass comment on Podiatric matters- what does that tell you?

Is there anyone else you would care to put down at present? What about poor students who cant afford to go to conference? "


Davidh

 

Oh c'mon guys, this is getting boring now. This ain't TFS!

To try to drag it back to the point (rather than the scoring of same) there seems to be a point being made viz a vis how we lay out our pricing.

As Cornmerchant astutly points out there is a danger in the "treatments FROM £18" type advertising that patients will come in and say "I want that one. How long before some smart alec decides to say "thats fine, don't bother with the assessment, I'm 30 years old and healthy, I don't NEED one". Or indeed how long before Sainsbury's, wanting to increase turnover, asks why an assessment is needed and puts pressure on the Chiropodist to skip it with some patients?


And as DTT stated

Its even possible for these misunderstandings to crop up between us within the profession. As Kevin points out so often on the Biomechanics side of things it is essential to be clear and unambiguous when we write. That, I think, was the point DTT was trying to make.

The "prices from" bit of marketing is one which alway irritates me as it is so potentially misleading. Its a bit like "up to 70% off" which one sees from time to time, all that really states is that there are no products MORE than 70% off. But aside from shouting at the television every Jan ( a habit of mine which intensely irritates my wife) there is nothing which can be done. Its marketing, its misleading and it works!

Can we now PLEASE move on, shake hands and be friends again? Hands up who's the big enough guy / girl to NOT try to get one last dig in.

Regards
Robert

 

David

I am obviously not big enough for Robert- but I must apologise for my earlier discrepancy. What you describe as "out of context" regarding my post, I had believed was "off topic" and happily took a reprimand for. My mistake, I now understand the meaning of context for the purposes of this forum.

I do sincerely apologise and will now step back.

Cornmerchant

 

Davidh

 

Hi Robert

Have used your full post rather than highlighting bits of it.

It is true, even in practice now, I have had patients refuse to divulge medical history or accept they need an assessment. If this happens they do not receive treatment. I have only lost one patient to this standard. I rather think that providers such as Sainsburys will be keen to stay on the right side of legislation if they wish to supply Podiatry or Chiropody. The only way to circumnavigate the need for assessment would be to employ another footcare provider. This of course is an option.

I do take your point about clear and unambiguous. On forums and in any email the things we lack are facial expressions, tone of voice. We must all be aware of this. My initial posting on this topic was a little tongue in cheek, I confess. This was made personal despite explanation and sadly the plot was lost; a good debate also lost on future employers - supermarkets vs NHS.

Sigh!

GB

PS My own personal opinion - bring on Sainsurys as a competitor to the NHS. Get commissioning underway - good standards in all clinics, competitive, accesible and patients will get their nails cut again whatever their health status. Sainsburys Basics is a decent product.....sorry tongue in cheek again!!!

 

Derek