London Riots

:dizzy:

 

Here's something I recieved from New Zealand by email this morning, just an example of the damage that has been done to the reputation of this country.

As much as I would like to argue with the content I find it difficult to counter.

What do you think ??

British Rioters Spawn of Bankrupt Ruling Elite
by Theodore Dalrymple, writing in The Australian, 11 August 2011

[Anthony (A.M.) Daniels (born 11 October 1949), who generally uses the pen name Theodore Dalrymple, is a British writer and retired prison doctor and psychiatrist. – extracted from Wikipedia]

They have somehow managed not to notice what has long been apparent to anyone who has taken a short walk with his eyes open down any frequented British street: that a considerable proportion of the country's young population (a proportion that is declining) is ugly, aggressive, vicious, badly educated, uncouth and criminally inclined.

Unfortunately, while it is totally lacking in self-respect, it is full of self-esteem: that is to say, it believes itself entitled to a high standard of living, and other things, without any effort on its own part.

Consider for a moment the following: although youth unemployment in Britain is very high, that is to say about 20 per cent of those aged under 25, the country has had to import young foreign labour for a long time, even for unskilled work in the service sector.

The reasons for this seeming paradox are obvious to anyone who knows young Britons as I do.

No sensible employer in a service industry would choose a young Briton if he could have a young Pole; the young Pole is not only likely to have a good work ethic and refined manners, he is likely to be able to add up and -- most humiliating of all -- to speak better English than the Briton, at least if by that we mean the standard variety of the language. He may not be more fluent but his English will be more correct and his accent easier to understand.

This is not an exaggeration. After compulsory education (or perhaps I should say intermittent attendance at school) up to the age of 16 costing $80,000 a head, about one-quarter of British children cannot read with facility or do simple arithmetic. It makes you proud to be a British taxpayer.

I think I can say with a fair degree of certainty, from my experience as a doctor in one of the areas in which a police station has just been burned down, that half of those rioting would reply to the question, "Can you do arithmetic?" by answering, "What is arithmetic?"

British youth leads the Western world in almost all aspects of social pathology, from teenage pregnancy to drug taking, from drunkenness to violent criminality. There is no form of bad behaviour that our version of the welfare state has not sought out and subsidised.

British children are much likelier to have a television in their bedroom than a father living at home. One-third of them never eat a meal at a table with another member of their household -- family is not the word for the social arrangements of the people in the areas from which the rioters mainly come. They are therefore radically unsocialised and deeply egotistical, viewing relations with other human beings in the same way as Lenin: Who whom, who does what to whom. By the time they grow up, they are destined not only for unemployment but unemployability.

For young women in much of Britain, dependence does not mean dependence on the government: that, for them, is independence. Dependence means any kind of reliance on the men who have impregnated them who, of course, regard their own subventions from the state as pocket money, to be supplemented by a little light trafficking. (According to his brother, Mark Duggan, the man whose death at the hands of the probably incompetent police allegedly sparked the riots, "was involved in things", which things being delicately left to the imagination of his interlocutor.)

Relatively poor as the rioting sector of society is, it nevertheless possesses all the electronic equipment necessary for the prosecution of the main business of life; that is to say, entertainment by popular culture. And what a culture British popular culture is!

Perhaps Amy Winehouse was its finest flower and its truest representative in her militant and ideological vulgarity, her stupid taste, her vile personal conduct and preposterous self-pity.

Her sordid life was a long bath in vomitus, literal and metaphorical, for which the exercise of her very minor talent was no excuse or explanation. Yet not a peep of dissent from our intellectual class was heard after her near canonisation after her death, that class having long had the backbone of a mollusc.

Criminality is scarcely repressed any more in Britain. The last lord chief justice but two thought that burglary was a minor offence, not worthy of imprisonment, and the next chief justice agreed with him.

By the age of 12, an ordinary slum-dweller has learned he has nothing to fear from the law and the only people to fear are those who are stronger or more ruthless than he.

Punishments are derisory; the police are simultaneously bullying but ineffectual and incompetent, increasingly dressed in paraphernalia that makes them look more like the occupiers of Afghanistan than the force imagined by Robert Peel. The people who most fear our police are the innocent.

Of course, none of this reduces the personal responsibility of the rioters. But the riots are a manifestation of a society in full decomposition, of a people with neither leaders nor followers but composed only of egotists.
________________________________________


Cheers

D

 

And another Death

http://latestnews.virginmedia.com/news/uk/2011/08/12/hospital_death_adds_to_riots_toll

Makes my previous post seem more indefensible perhaps ??
Cheers
D

 

Thats 5 now.

As glamourous as the whole "we must go out and protect our homes and property" is, this is the reality of it.

There is a line, just inside my front door. Anyone stepping over it can expect to be greeted with a wide variety of interesting historical, modern and far eastern weaponry, both ballistic and personal. But honest people have no business being out when this sort of thing is happening. They endanger themselves, they endanger the police who must protect them, and the endanger the rest of us who are less protected because the police are diverting resources away from the riots to police the vigilante groups.

Its desparately sad, but thats the world we live in. Righteous anger is no protection.

 

well its all quite on the western front all the C H U D have returned from whence they came. all that remains is for the liberal left wing elite and their close relatives at the bbc to apportion the blame.because it could not possibly be the fault of those criminal opressed morons whose faces have lightened up the cct cameras. its got to be because of tory cuts cos diane abbot says so and harriet harman agrees with her. mystery solved then.

 

You miss out the fact that the PM is taking the credit for single handedly stopping the riots - and that the Police got it wrong.

Having been a 'Riot Trained Officer' during the 80's I can assure everyone that given the authroity, this could have been stopped within the first two hours, but the aftermath enquiry would havecost millions and see hundreds of Police officers in court.

The Public get the Police Service they demand - Policing by Consent.

If we demand that the Goverment empower the Police to declare situations like Sunday/Monday a 'Riot' and provide them emergency powers to detain, de-mask, photograph and truchoen people until they stop murdering, burning and looting etc, the Met would have no problem doing it. However - it will be up to the Public to demand that.

Having the PM taking the credit is just a joke - next he will be telling us they have WMD's

 

I agree wholeheartedly with you, But I wonder if the ROBUST style of policing you suggest would get the support of the senior officers and as FP said the Diane Abbots and Harriet Harmens bleating on about police brutality ??

I thing the majortity of right minded people agree with robust policing but how many of them will stand up and support the police officer the is on a manslaughter charge that stands before the court and in essence stands there alone ??

I think the police are in an impossible position damned if they do damned if they dont and that is not fair to expect them to work for us under those conditions.

We the public and the senior officers need to fully suport these officers and think of THEIR human rights rather than those of the scum they are policing.

Cheers
D

 

This man was caught robbing with a fake gun, executed on the streets of Pakistan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13721759

I am not asking for the Police to shoot people - but why to I get fined £80.00 for stopping outside Luton airport and a looter gets £25.00 ?

 

Let me introduce you all to Sheriff Joe Arpaio from Phoenix, Arizona, USA

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/arpaio.asp

he keeps getting re-elected every time with a landslide so he must be doing something right ....

CF

 

Hindsight being the wonderful thing it undoubtedly is, I now feel qualified to post on this thread.

Most of the english public education system stinks - it has for at least forty years. Poor education is probably at the root of most of our social ills (one symptom of these is stupid youths rioting and stealing, and not realising that they were being video'd). Poor integration of some of our immigrant communities was obviously part of the overall picture too.

I don't buy into the no work/cut benefits nonsense which some people are claiming was the cause of the riots.
Any riots in Wales, or Scotland? No, I thought not.

As far as the riots go the arrest rate was very satisfactory, the prosecution rate is pretty good, and I see the first eviction order is going through, which is good news.
Not a Tory supporter usually, but I like the speed with which the courts are dealing with the rioters, and the government must have had something to do with that.

 

Yeah! Put the rioters out on the streets!

No, wait...

 

Catfoot, have you researched the low-life Arpaio?

 

MJC,

You are mistaken. The only low-life around are in his jails.

The liberal wing in the US don't like sucessful Republicans so there is bound to be some negative publicity.

regards

Catfoot

 

It seems DC is enlisting the help of Bill Bratton to address the gang culture

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/differences-over-riot-response-continue-2337108.html

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...ns-uk-over-riots/story-e6frf7jx-1226114398362

 

David H,
You said

and I would go along with that to a degree. Years ago we streamed our children and those that had problems with learning were classed as ESN (Educationally Subnormal) and placed in Special Schools where they received almost one-to-one tuition to bring out their full potential.

Now we are not allowed to label kids in this way, "streaming" has been abolished and in Comprehensive schools the bright kids are held back as the class has to go at the pace of the slowest.

My teacher friends have their hands tied as they cannot mete out any discipline in case it infringes pupils' Human Rights.

I'm not sure I buy into that. My personal experience is that immigrant communities don't want to integrate and choose to become ghettoised. They come to this country without preparation, such as not having a job or a good command of English.

I can recall the experiences of a newly-qualified teacher friend at a Primary School in the late 70's who was given 40 kids to teach, when only 2 could speak English.

A great deal has been made of "deadbeat dads" but I would lay a lot of the problems at the feet of deadbeat mums, coupled with the wrong message being sent out to these dollys by the previous government. For the average Sink Estate teenage chick, getting pregnant is a good career move as it guarantees her a council flat and benefits which increase after every birth.
We have an Underclass because we pay to have one. 60 years of welfare hasn't worked as benefits don't encourage people to improve themselves. They keep them in a poverty trap.

BTW I do have personal experience of all this as I have worked on notorious housing estates such as Manor Top, (Sheffield), Hulme (Manchester) and Orchard Park (Hull)

regards

Catfoot

 

Largely agree. However, successive governments have pursued a policy of 'multiculturalism'. This means, in effect, 'ghettoisation' because the lovely pinko liberal idealism of those who have never been near a sink estate makes no attempt at integration. This results in immigrant groups sticking together to speak their own language and follow their own cultural norms without relating to the law of the land and respecting other cultures. This is not to dismiss the poisonous outpourings of far right groups of the indigenous population, but even they would be unable to garner support if integration had been the policy of mainstream political parties.

There is hope. I was at Edgbaston for the Test Match yesterday and there were white, black, Indian and even Pakistani cricket lovers all having a good time together. Sections of the barmy army were shouting for India since their team was not doing so well. Above all, the dignity and courage of the chap whose sons were killed in Birmingham trying to defend their property has hit a chord with all right thinking people and has led to cross community support.

There is no excuse for criminality and it is sad to see politicians, social workers, activists and their fellow travellers jump on the bandwagon to claim that there is. The decent majority must reclaim the streets.

Bill liggins

 

Bill,

I sincerely hope you are right.

However, "right-thinking people" weren't the ones out looting etc. so I think that the admirable gentleman you mention was largely preaching to the converted.

There needs to be a way to break the cycle of benefits dependence, gang culture and a reinstatement of family values. However, as I am not a sociologist, I have no idea how this could be realistically achieved.

With regard to crime, let's see what the Super-cop from across the pond has to say on the matter. That should be interesting.....

regards

Catfoot

 

Hi Catfoot

What wasn't shown by the national BBC, was that many young men in the community that chap lived in were out to take revenge on those within the community of the alleged murderers. He physically stood in front of them and turned them back. One man can make a difference - not that the BBC would have an interest in relaying good news of course; like much of the press, for them, bad news is good news.

Cheers

Bill

 

God help us if the Yanks philosophy are adopted in this country !!

Our Police just need to be given a green light and the "cuffs" taken off by the politcaly correct, human rights brigade

Let them get on with what they are employed for...to protect the public !!!!

If one or two scum get killed in the process because they resist arrest then so be it.

The PROPER people of ENGLAND are the only ones that matter !!!

The rest......put up with the consequences of your actions


BUT

Don't knock the policeman that has acted in good faith to do his job properly and then is hauled up before the courts and in the public eye to be pilloried !!

Cheers
D

 

DTT,
I totally agree with what you say.
I think the politicians, and to some degree the British public need to either tinkle or get off the potty.

Do they want "robust policing" or not ??

It's no use giving the Police the tools to do the job, such as baton rounds and tear gas and then whine about "police brutality" and "human rights" if a crim gets hurt.

It's also time they stopped using horses for riot control. It's not fair to put these animals in the front line to be pelted with missiles.

regards

Catfoot

 

CF.. For once I NEARLY agree with you

Cant av the horses bit though....sorry

Horses have been used in battle for hundreds of years and are still very effective in this situation they do a brilliant job ...BUT ... like humans, in this situation some get injured... sad but that's life

Cheers
D

 

DTT,

must be a first.....

We won't agree on that so perhaps better quit while we are ahead ....

CF

 

I can just see the powers-that-be sitting around discussing how best to fix the situation.
"Here's a good idea. Why don't we find a group of UK health professionals who haven't been able to sort their own profession out in 50 years - podiatrists for example, and see what advice they can give?"

Hi Catfoot,

Mostly the voting population in England are appalled by the riots. That means that the government are bound to step down hard on the rioters (easy way to make yourself popular) and all parties will be behind them - because no party wants to upset possible voters.
Even the labour party have put the brakes on making much political mileage out of the situation.

Deafening silence from most of the loony left now too.

On the subject of evictions - we don't want to see all the rioters and their parents evicted - just a handful - at random.

 

DH,

How about re-housing them in a draughty sea-front doss-house in Blackpool? After a month they would be pleading to be sent to prison.

regards

Catfoot

 

Police Chopper circling Croydon for the last 15 minuites, sirens coming from everywhere , Please not again:butcher:

We have had Police carriers full of riot police parked up in the back streets 24 hours a day since last week, if this is kicking off again lets hope thier stored up energies can be used to knock the shyte out of the scum this time !!!.

What a bloody way to live , Life in the suburbs 2011 style.:sinking:

Cheers
D

 

this arpaio is a bloody genius i have known about him for a long time as i live part or the year in the good ole usa he cancelled coffee for prisoners because it has no nutritional value so the perps drink water . he boasts it costs more to feed the guard dogs per day than the prisoners they have to have tv for their human rights so they have the disney and the weather channel . the weather channel just reminds the scum its 110 degrees they are not tortured but he wastes no tax payers dollars on these chud makes em wear pink fatigues so they lok like pussies . no x mas menu in his nick no snooker tables either prison is a punishment keep up the good work . he is adirectly elected sheriff this is true democracy if the people of pheonix dont like his regime they can vote him out.
sc

 

Au contraire Catfoot, he who is honoured to be compared with the Ku Klux Klan, that is enough in itself, but have a google.
A racist right-wing neo-Nazi supported low-life.
As for the liberal element, more power to them!

 

MJC,
Hmmmmmmm.

I have read in today's (UK) papers that at least 600 of those who took place in the rioting/looting were already know to the Police. They had been let out on early-release programmes from either prison or young offenders institutions. This is why, no doubt, they were arrested so quickly as their DNA and fingerprints were already on file.

This tells me that the Criminal Justice System just isn't working.

It seems that these criminal like being banged-up so much they want to get back in. So maybe it is time for the pink jumpsuits ......

regards

Catfoot

 

I just feel incredibly sad. In the next few weeks I'll be receiving some cards adorned with the word century for the second time in my life - and as it approaches I'm not hugely delighted with the way things have turned out. What was so wrong with peace and love man? Aren't we all in danger of getting it all out of perspective? I mean it's simple, huh? Life: Do things that make you happy. Don't screw it up too much for other people. Treat people like you them. Enjoy this place. However, why-ever we're here. Try to leave it in a better state for whoever comes next. Find something to do with your time that you enjoy and might be enjoyed and respected by others around you. Keep it simple.

But I don't know how we can get that philosophy to prevail when we are so immersed in this quite horrific war-mongering, empire postulating quagmire with its corrupt financial and political bastions, intent on driving the planet to destruction (in more ways than one for humankind) in the pretence that the only way to survive is to feed the growth of the economic market driven money, money, money, money machine. We've even got to the point where the capitalist driven economies are dependent on the only communist state in the world to survive in this consumer driven frenzy! Isn't it stupid? Greed; anger; fear; insecurity; inequalities; poverty; despair. Was it so surprising? Kids blowing up shops to get things? People killing people to get things? Nations......

We come into this life with nothing. We take only our memories away. Why clutter them with useless "things" and stupidities? Surely it isn't beyond the wit of man to find a way of life in a non-destructive enjoyable environment where we really are all equal, and not as Mr Orwell described.

I recall a time many years ago when, as a boy, I was taken away hill-walking in the Scottish Highlands with my geography teacher along with several classmates. Being light of foot and quite fit, I was first to the summit - and naturally, first back to the mini-van at the end of the climb. On the way home, the teacher - a wonderfully gentle man with an incredible passion for the outdoors and nature - asked if I would write up the trip for the school journal and how I would head it. I replied "Beath conquer the Buachaille in under three hours." No he replied, we didn't. "We conquered it in three hours and forty six minutes, the success of the party is measured by the pace of the slowest member." These days I'm always last off the hill. The slower pace makes the days even more enjoyable.

It seems to me that we would all do well in remembering the lesson of that day.

All the best

PS It's a temperature inversion - not the smoke from the riots!

 

...whereas this tells me the whole SYSTEM isn't working

 

MJC,
Maybe UK can learn from Oz?

Their immigration policy makes interesting reading,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_history_of_Australia

regards

Catfoot

 

Hope that makes the Calendar - Loving August by the way.

 

Lets not get too dispondant chaps.

The riots were a very unwelcome insight into the psyche of the underbelly of society. An underbelly we all knew was there. Nothing newsworthy about that. They were also an insight into what can happen when "pack mentality" takes over, but that again is not news. History is littered with examples. You can't change human nature.

Order has now been restored and very high publicity justice is being meeted out to many of the participants. People who thought that the absence of police meant they were safe are discovering that this is not the case. Which is nice.

Not to downplay the seriousness of what went on, but I think that it is an over-reaction to believe that the entire society is breaking down on the basis of these Riots, or to think that it shows the British model of policing to be inherently flawed.

We might well have grounds to criticise the way the policing was handled on a strategic level. But then, its worth remembering that it WAS handled. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but who knows that it could have been much worse had it been handled more aggressively (as everyone seems to prefer).

In the end it was numbers which quelled the riots, not style. Numbers cost. In much the same way, when it snows and we complain that there are not enough snowplows then complain in summer that we're paying too much. We have the number of police we've paid for. We want more, we'll have to pay for more.

A few people have referenced America's more Robust approach. The good Sheriff and the penchant for shooting looters and suchlike. However whilst it is of course a gross oversimplification to suggest that the style of policing is the only factor, Inner city America is not know for being a gang free Utopia, populated by lovable scamps in the Billy Elliot mould. So the "hard line" has obvious not been 100% successful! Might be worth remembering that. There are, I understand, places in America where even the police travel in pairs, and rather nervously! To paraphrase the untouchables, we draw a knife, they draw a gun. We send one of theirs to the hospital, they send one of ours to the morgue. We've all seen Robocop.

The "softer" style of policing by consent carries its own risks and pitfalls, but also significant benefits! Benefits which the media will never emphasise because "it could have been worse" is not something people want to hear at a time like this. Its always easy to see the shortfalls, and I'd be the last to say that things cannot be improved, but I think that we would do well to consider that whatever style our police adopt has advantages and disadvantages. To think that "taking the gloves off" the police, arming them with more aggressive tools and the mandate to use them, would have, or will, stop this sort of thing is Naive IMO. America has already carried out that experiment for us and while the "tent prison" may be a horrible place, its not an EMPTY place. The police there are more robust in their approach, but the streets are not a great deal safer.

There. Loony liberal left back in circulation. Flame away boys.

 

A nation of spoiled little brats who see that they don't have to work for the things that they want. Why because, they get them from their parents (many of whom, i'm guessing) also don't have to work for what they want because the government pays them to get what they want! Either that or its just as easy to steal them.

I once treated at 35 year old female who had never worked!!! Obese and NIDDM but basically healthy.

She told me she turned down a job at Asda because she would have to get the bus there and it wasn't worth her while. Meanwhile receiving free treatment on the NHS

Why are we breeding a society of people suffering from bone-idle-itis?? Or have i just answered my owner question in both parts?

The UK has got to stop being the nanny easy state and clamp down on these spongers

 

Funny thing is and it maybe the medal highlighting these people, but a good % have been Uni students, 1 I saw worked at the Opera, another a pre-school teacher etc etc.

Greed I tells ya Greed - how do you change that?

So while taking away Government funding might soon good, what happens to these folks, homeless? Send them back to their Country of origin I hear , what happens to the Folks born in the UK ? Folks not on benefits ? etc etc

Be Great if it was Black and White and someone had the system sorted - everyone would copy it.

@catfoot - Australian Immigration history is shocking and a disgrace in many ways, yet pales into insignificance how the native population of Australia have been treated a whole different discussion.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-Lidl-water-thief-jailed-for-six-months.html

Here we have a student (eletrical engineering) who was arrested for nicking, of all things, a case of bottled water (available through all good taps). RRP £3.50. Claims he was walking past after it was broken into and carried out an oppertunistic theft. No previous.

I think that tops the rice for the stupidest thing to nick.

He got a 6 month prison sentance.

I don't think that's being "soft" on them. Considering that although he PROBABLY was involved in the riots and breaking as well, but that this was not something for which he was CHARGED, you could even argue that 6 months for £3.50's worth of water is a bit strong.

Sends a very powerful message.

 

No, he was put in jug (sorry) for thieving. The fact that it was a bottle of water or a solid silver George 111rd claret decanter is, in this sense neither here nor there. As long as people make excuses for these scum on the basis that 'you could argue that it's a bit strong', the more they will thieve. Laws are made to be used by consent.

In this case the pre-existing law was applied, by consent, and rightly so to send a message that society (which means you and I and the rest of the majority) will not tolerate thieving, riot, disorder, arson, murder and all the rest of the crimes attendant upon this shameful episode.

All the best

Bill

 

Not making excuses for him. Just saying is all.

And it seems capricious to me. When this guy,

Got 20 weeks.

So attacking a police officer is 5 months but running away from one is 6?!

How is that now?

 

Here's another. David Attoh pleaded Guilty to nicking 2 designer tee shirts, got away with the two days he spend awaiting sentance.

Whereas Shereece Ashley was tried in the same court as Nicholas Robinson (our Lidl thief). She admits to having gone out specifically for looting, rather than being an opportunist, and was targeting electrical goods in Tesco, yet she gets 3 months and he gets 6.

The way these things have been "fast tracked", and the sentances seeming to be so random gives me grave concern.