London Riots

On the face of it absurd but I don't know all the facts. What I do know is that the law exists to be applied. It was clearly applied in the latter case, but presumably not fully in the former. In any case the argument is fallacious because the thief was jailed for thieving, not for running away from the police.

In any case, because the law in a) was applied and in b) was not, therefore a) is incorrect, sounds rather like a Rothbart argument!

Cheers

Bill

 

Hmmm. Can't agree there.

There is always an element in discretion in the application of the law. I doubt any one reading this has never broken one. But you don't get the same fine for driving at 130 mph as you do for driving at 85. Likewise, I will hold my hands up to occasional scrumping when I was a younger man. Had I been nabbed by the farmer with pockets full of cooking apples I would have expected a ticking off, and perhaps even a ding around the ear, but not a 6 month jail sentence! By the "theft is theft" rule that’s exactly what I would have received. There IS a difference. There ARE aggravating and mitigating factors involved in sentencing, and the qualitative value of the property stolen, and the manner in which it was stolen, are two of those.

This guy was (quite rightly) convicted of thieving, from an unsecured premises. To do that is very wrong. And, as I said, it does send out a very powerful PR message which is a very important thing to do just now.

But, in context of the other sentences handed down for similar offences, and the broader context of sentancing, this seems excessive to me.

Thems the breaks and thems the lumps, and he'll have to swallow them (washed down with HMPS tap water). But I think in terms of the wider argument, whether British criminal justice is too soft, it makes an argument that its not!

Whether that is a good thing or not is of course a matter for opinion...

 

Image the gathering of very unhappy people if these guys got off with a fine or the like.

A demonstration about the punishments re the Riot which started from a demonstration re excessive use of force by the Police if you will

1st ones called up will get big punishments.

 

Nope cant av that Rob

Its because the others were toooooo Leniant !!:hammer:

We have to toughen up and make a punishment just that:butcher:

But just as the government has to standardise the police guidelines for handling this sort of situation, the punishments handed down by the courts must reflect fairness.

It should also be noted that many of theses offenders have social report made available to the courts which are not reported in the press.

Those reports will have an effect on the punishment.

Cheers
D

 

You surprise me Del

I think the number of arrestees (to date) is about 2700.

Cost about 50 million to send them all down for six months. If there were places, which there arn't.

I'm doing it again arn't I. Argument in an empty room. Sorry, I'll take my whinging lefty views elsewhere.

I'm just saying, the integrity of the criminal justice system is if anything, more important than cases. If we allow ourselves to be caught up in the popular outrage and hand down sentances "on tilt", or if we abandon a policing culture which many countries would love to have but can't. we risk losing something which took centuries to build.

 

I sincerely hope this is the START of proper sentencing and not a one off on the tilt reaction. Public opinion has stated unequivicaly they want offenders punished properly and to get rid of the limp wristed PC correct nonsense. The police HAD the power to use water canon AND plastic bullets if the commanders felt that was needed.

THEY DIDNT preferring to police by traditional policing. I agree I dont want to see the police being misused as in other countries but can we please get back to "OLD FASHIONED POLICING" and If you dont know what that is ( Son ) I'll explain it to you at our next joint clinic here

Cheers
D

 

Nope

If the (consensual) law is to be applied then specious arguments about 'if there were places' have to be put aside. We're cutting the number of ships in the navy. No reason on earth that these should not be used as prison ships and redundant ex navy personnel (or even better, Ghurkas) trained as prison guards. Or we could take a leaf out of that Texas sheriff's book and have razor wire compounds with tents in them. The reply concerning human rights (and I'm not advocating breaching them) would be that our blokes on the front line in Afghanistan are putting up with freezing winters in a lot worse conditions.

Trendy lefties (mentioning no names!) have to understand that these people must be made to realise exactly what they are. They are parasites on society and have freely abandoned their rights and privileges in society by transgressing the laws made by that society. They must also understand that there is no excuse for the acts which they have carried out and that they live a life of luxurious freedom compared to 'less fortunate nations'.

Nobody is proposing that we breach or change the criminal justice system, nor have they stated that we hand down sentences 'on tilt'. All they are saying is that the law is consensual (as is policing) and that the law should be applied.

All the best

Bill

 

I'll get me coat.

But don't you two come crying to me when you lose your license for doing 81MPH (first offense) on the motorway. The law is the law, and if you choose to break it you are clearly parasites on society and must face the consequences of your actions! After all, more people are killed and injured by speeding cars in a single year than in all the riots in the last 100 years put together!

Everyone wants the law applied, but few want it applied to them.

I'll visit you in the Gulag

PS, I'm most gratified that you consider me trendy Bill!

PPS, Old fashioned policing might struggle. We don't live in an old fashioned world. Its no longer ok to give someone a good kicking because they are a "bad sort", whilst letting the loveable rascals who got into some high jinx off with a stern talking too from their nanny.

 

Sadly, I just picked up a 60 quid fine and 3 points on my license for doing 50 miles an hour in a 40 limit. I grouched and paid up even though it was on a dual carriageway which had only just been re-listed as 40 having been 50 for many years and still 50 on the other side of the road AND a large van was interposed between my car and the sign/camera.

You see, that's the difference between us and them; after a couple of moans to the lady wife, I coughed up because I accepted that I had broken the law and now had to pay the price. My act was one of omission, not of commission but I have to accept my punishment.

Perhaps I can appeal to the lefty court of Isaccs and get off scot free? Please let me know because I am a poor pod and therefore deprived and deserving of all available support from the fluffy pinko brigade!

See you in Oz.

Bill

 

When you started talking old fashioned policing, and Bill mentioned ship suddenly thought maybe the Empire had discovered a rather large island that needed populating

 

NO that is not the point, it was when proper coppers used their discretion and common sense and applied that to their daily working lives. That way they commanded respect not contempt as now:bang:

So that to use your example if you were caught on an empty motorway doing 81 mph you were given a bollocking and let go, if on the otherhand you were doing 50 mph through a town on the school run you would get the ticket and the ban.

Now they are uniformed tax collectors in traffic working to targets.

We don't live in an old fashioned world but I believe desperately need a return to the old fashioned values of discipline in the home and the school and responsibility for your actions to restore family values of respect for others and their property.

Cheers
D

 

See Bill ruined my post by being quick on the convict shippment joke.

 

Don't worry Mike, we'll send Rob Isaccs to Oz and he'll give retrospective free pardons to all the old long dead prisoners, and 50% of the population of Australia'll move to the UK. Mind you, we'd probably be better off and there'd be no jobs for barmen in the pubs left!

Cheers

Bill

 

Clearly not a "bad sort". Say ten hail Mary's and your sin will be forgiven. When I come to power of course.

That's the real trick isn't it. Who is "them". If "them" is people who accept they broke the law and had to pay the price then...

The London water fiend ...

A part of my disquiet over this is the way we are so willing to talk about "them" as if "they" are some vast homogenous whole, equally guilty and equally rotten.

 

They were probably all jolly good chaps. Anyway, no room over here (or so people keep telling me .

 

'Them' and 'they' are criminals who deliberately flout the law and expect to get away with it, mainly because the fluffy pink left state that their criminality is the fault of 'society' ie. us, and never the criminals ie. 'them'. 'They' are guilty of rejecting the benefits of society by committing crimes of commission. Even the law accepts that speeding is not a criminal act.

I am encouraged that my speeding sins will be forgiven by President Isaccs. I am sure that everybody else's will be also, because, like me they are victims of a pernicious, right wing and vicious law. The prison doors will be flung open and we will all be highly entertained by watching the country descend into anarchy.

:butcher:

 

All,
This is just not acceptable

http://www.channel4.com/news/police-dog-injured-during-riots

regards

Catfoot

 

More people live in London Immigrants included (or the ones we know about anyway ) than live in Australia.

Your right Rob no room left !!!:bang:

Open your eyes fella look around you, TELL ME I'M WRONG !!

bloody kids....

Cheers
D

 

Not the dog. Anything but the dog!

Of course its not acceptable. None of it is (and I'm more of a "person person" than a "dog person"

That's "beloved father of his people" Isaacs to you. Doubleplusungood that you'd unremember that.

Look, I'm not saying that these people are victims of society, or of anything else. Not am I saying they should get away with it, nor that police should have their sticks taken away and replaced with foam mallets. I'm all for water cannon, baton charges and baton rounds (if the situation demands it). In fact, how about water cannon followed by tazers, that would be fun.

I'm just saying that at times like this, when public outrage is high, politics tend to take a sharp lurch to the right. Those who break the law should be very publicly punished, on this we agree. But I worry when I see an "us and them" groundswell, that when we break the law its regrettable but ok, but when they break the law then its hard time all the way. Its a thin wedge.

I'm reminded of the American "patriot act", and that chap who was arrested at the labour party conference under the prevention of terrorism act for heckling. But it was OK because we were all ****** off about 9/11. Same thing. And bluntly, the Bush administration scared the hell out of me.

Going back a page before I stuck my hand in the political blender, my point was that it would be as much of a mistake to OVER react to this (for eg by tearing up the sentencing guidelines to satisfy political pressure and public opinion) as it would to UNDER react (for eg by punishing these people less because there was a riot going on or because they had a hard childhood or something).

I don't like to see the courts playing up to the crowd. And I think that's what happened with aqua man.

Can I go now?

PS, new avatar since I've been "outed" as a liberal lefty bleeding heart, commie B****D

 

I agree. None of this is acceptable.

I think that we are near agreement Oh GreatFatherofOurPinkandFluffyCountry. My point is that the courts have applied the law as it stands - for a change. The law is fine as it is, it just hasn't been applied in the past so the morons, thieves, arsonists and murderers (and dog killers) have been deluded into thinking they can do whatever they like without consequences. Just for once, some - and only some - of them are being shown that with rights comes responsibility.


All the best

Bill

PS love the new avatar but shouldn't it be Joe Stalin - he didn't stand any nonsense and was much worse than Hitler

 

Hello Robert,
IMO it was not a good idea to change your avatar.

Have you ever been to the Lenin museum in Moscow and seen Lenin's Rolls Royce?

His corpse is pickled in formalin and exhibited in Red Square and venerated in the same way as Saints are in other countries.

He had a good way of life when the peasants he sought to represent were starving.

Let's not go there...


regards

Catfoot

 

Hi all,

These individuals may or may not have been rioting. Some (aqua man) were 'caught up in the moment'!

These acts aren't petty pilfering regardless of value of items damaged or stolen. These acts were against every decent member of society & should be treated accordingly. At the very point an individual chooses (& we all have choices) to be involved that is the point they select to be a criminal. Personally I would see them also stripped of all assets. That is what they chose to do to the property of others.

These weren't peaceful protesters demanding change. These individuals were hell bent on causing distress & destruction. The very fabric of our society is reliant on order & justice. I don't believe the sentences are a knee jerk response. I believe they are a necessary deterrant.

Much love & human kindness to all xxx

 

Oh for f......

Fine fine. This one OK with you?

 

Which ones, the ones who got 6 months for nicking £3.50 worth of water or the ones who got 5 months for trying to gouge a policemans eyes out.

 

Have you checked your water rates recently?

In all seriousness, I too believe that violent crime against any individual should be given the stiffest sentence. However when that violence is against someone putting their life at risk to protect others then I don't think throwing the key away would be unjust.

Only my ramblings you understand.

Mand'

PS. Looking sexy with the beard
You not me, mine itches!

 

Oh Bloody Ell Isaacs gimme a break

Cheers
D

 

What?

I like this one. Sort of festive.

 

Sorry CF but I do actually agree with the president Isaacs on this point

cheers
D

 

OK Robbo,
I admit defeat, just who is the beardie-weardie in your avatar ....? St Nicholas ??

Very curious

Catfoot

 

Beirdy weirdo indeed!

None other than Karl Marx. Author of the communist manifesto. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need " and that.

And del, I thought i'd made it perfectly clear to comrade liggins, it's "beloved father of his people", not "president"

 

Catfoot, you're making assumptions.
As for Australia's immigration policy, for ecological reasons I'd like there to be NO new immigration from any country, Australia has, like the rest of the planet, limited resources, we're already killing the Great Barrier Reef for example.
However, ethically, how can a human being deny another when one has so much relative to those attempting to flee what I can only imagine are horrific conditions.
Australia has indeed a despicable history towards the initial inhabitants, the "Aborigines", like many other countries, and in response to some other posts, IMO if a person is born in a country, no matter there skin colour or religion then they are of that country. In Australia no matter if you're descended from the Aboriginal peoples, British convicts, other European countries, Central Asian or South-East Asian (and NEW ZEALAND) if you're born in Australia you are Australian and deserve EQUAL rights. This same reasoning would apply to all countries including Britain surely.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but do not immigrants settling in Oz have to at some point renounce their country of origin and become Austrailians ???

Unlike here of course when a large section slag off this country bring their ways to it and force it onto the existing population telling us all what a wonderful place their homeland is oh and adopting that in a title , pakistani British, Indian British, African British and do their level best to bleed the state dry.

That does not apply to all that come here, many are hard working dignified and proud to become part of this country and they are and rightly should be welcome....shame about the significant others though

For it is they that inflame feelings and resentment and until THAT is controlled and we can have a meaninful sensible debate about it without the lefties screaming rascist to block it I fear nothing will change.

Cheers
D

 

We now have no leaders but Managers, they try to balance things out and like most Managers fail (my NHS experience). When have successful leaders ever been 'fair', when fighting the corner for their people, it`s not possible ! Like Managers they`re afraid of making mistakes, do little, end up more skewed.

As far as our over full prisons are concerned, no confinement is necessary for crimes not against the person. Theft, fraud etc etc etc, keep them in the community, ensure they work to pay off their 'debt'. We`d only need 30% of available prison spaces. Won`t happen, takes imagination and a willingness to get it wrong sometimes.

Just musing as to what I should come back as in my next life; a horse ? no, might end up having to pull a cart or have someone on my back all the time !
A cat, ahh now that`s a possible...............

 

We actually have the technology to do that these days.

I'd rather see those people under curfew / house arrest for a year than in clink for 6 months. Cheaper to the taxpayer, means they can still work, means they don't get institutionalised, less "boomeranging", and whereas prison, in some sectors of society, is a badge of honour, a cuff around the ankle and being limited to watching the soaps in the evening is not.

 

But then again you have to identify a crime against a person??

Theft = burglary

I consider that a crime against the person and one that should carry a long custodial sentence. The mental damage that inflicts on the victims is immense and in many cases life changing so before we start waving a white flag to the scum, perhaps get them to build more prisons whilst serving their sentence??

Cheers
D

 

:good:

This makes sense. I would still suggest assets are also seized. Sometimes the loss of freedom alone is not enough. The loss of personal posessions provides the offender with even more insight into the anguish they cause by their actions. As Robert & others suggest, in prison we still continue to pay for their crime. Cutting our noses off to spite our face is perhaps not the most appropriate solution.

Regards,

Mandy.

 

Crime against the person = any physical assault

Any other crime does not 'need' confinement provided the method of retribution is properly applied !

 

Red Robert,
You said

maybe, maybe not...

I wonder whether or not some of these young men know what will happen to them when they get put in prison and have to live cheek by jowl with the other hardened crims?
The warders can't be there all the time.
I think you should get my drift, I don't want to be any more explicit.

Even prisons have a hierachy among the inmates.


regards


catfoot

 

Yes I can confirm prison is worn as a "badge" by sections of society

Rosherville , If you dont think Burglary is a crime against the person, try having a burglar in your house whilst you are asleep in bed , see how you feel after

It IS a crime against the person.

Talking of technology, just got this on email, double click on any face in the crowd

http://www.gigapixel.com/image/gigapan-canucks-g7.html

I assume the police and the army will be getting these camera's coz there is nowhere to hide anymore when they do ;-)

Cheers
D

 

Red Robert,
You said

Which is an excellent idea in principle, but how will it be enforced?

We have already heard the story of a mother who "grounded" her son and sent him to his room. He then promptly climbed out of the window and went off to join the rioting.

We have, sadly, some young people who are defiant, out of control and have no respect for authority of any kind, or the law. IMO Custody in the best place for them in the interests of public safety.

regards

Catfoot